05-02-2019, 03:08 PM | #721 | |||
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games
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A few more points: If you want to play a hack and slash game, well, GURPS combat resolution is slow (it's not the only system like that), and things that make it faster usually make it extremely swingy, more so than IME players want. A roll to hit in D&D normally requires only 2 arithmetic actions (one addition, one comparison), plus it requires reading a die. Situational modifiers can add additional arithmetic, how common that is depends on rules edition. Against equal foes, hit probability is usually 50+% A roll to hit in GURPS normally requires at least 6 (roll 3d6, sum them, compare to skill, roll 3d6, sum them, compare to defense), and situational modifiers are very common at high skill levels because skill above 16 has no function other than permitting you to soak situational modifiers. Hit probability against an equal foe might be as low as 14% (combat reflexes, either fencing weapon or DB 2 shield, retreating). A damage roll in D&D is one or more dice, plus adds; add the result to damage taken. Target goes down if accumulated damage exceeds hp, otherwise no additional resolution required. A damage roll in GURPS is one or more dice, plus adds; subtract the target's DR (possibly adjusted by armor divisors), multiply penetrating damage based on location and weapon type, apply shock penalties, possibly roll for major wound effects and knockdown, possibly roll for consciousness. There are reasons GURPS does the things it does, but they are not free. |
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05-03-2019, 03:21 AM | #722 |
Join Date: Oct 2007
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Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games
And that immedately marks you as someone who isn't going to represent the majority of most randomly assembled groups, ie. you're not representative of the market in general. And the market is what decides which product is most popular.
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05-03-2019, 05:25 AM | #723 | |
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: FL
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Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games
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ETA: and I expect many of us here could write similar sentences.
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Formerly known as fighting_gumby. |
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05-03-2019, 06:08 AM | #724 |
Join Date: Oct 2007
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Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games
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05-04-2019, 01:18 AM | #725 | |
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Alsea, OR
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Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games
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The price of relatively reasonable¹ simulation is mathematical and procedural complexity. Combat is one area where abstraction is, for many, better than slow-playing detail. And where meaningful choices usually trump realism choices. In re the comparison to the D&D spell lists.... players don't have access to the majority at start. The list available is limited by class, and by level, and thus increases over time; GURPS Skills, Advantages, and Disadvantages are usually 1/2 to 2/3 the list being available to any given PC... and while maybe 1/20th of the advantages are reasonable fits to the concept, what's reasonable for the sheet is some subset that needs be decided upon. Often that subset isn't selected by best fit to concept, but to point totals and/or bonus collection math. The templates help somewhat... but those werre coming into GURPS when I was giving up on it. (between G:IOU and G:Ogre releases) Let's look at one other thing... this time, comparing to Star Wars (WEG or FFG) and some Star Trek (PD One or STA)... Defaulting complexity. In GURPS - I need to know what skill I'm missing. I then need to look up the default (there are too many to memorize, and they're also too many to put on the GM screen...). The lack of lookup, and the lack of reverse lookup of defaults (what defaults from the indexed skill) also is a hassle. Meanwhile, while less realistic, in both mentioned star wars systems, I just use raw attribute. In both Star Trek games, there's a consistent penalty. PD One, unskilled is a +2 to all TN's (remembering that it gives 3 TN's per action) and rolled on the average of skill and attribute as normal (so half attribute). In STA, if you have relevant focus, 1 success on Att+Disc or less, 2 on Disc or less; unskilled, 1 success on Att + Disc or less, 2 on nat 1. -=-=-=-=- ¹ 1 second combat rounds are NOT reasonable. At least, not in my experiences... firefights last minutes, not seconds. Swordfights should have short bursts separated by multiple 5's of seconds... ISTR a G3E supplement having a rule for that. |
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05-05-2019, 09:43 PM | #726 | ||
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
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Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games
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Last edited by lordabdul; 05-05-2019 at 09:48 PM. |
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05-06-2019, 12:19 PM | #727 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Los Angeles
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Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games
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Every Ad, Disad, Skill, Technique and Spell (with page number, cost, type, difficulty, etc.).
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How to Be a GURPS GM, author Game Geekery, Blog (GURPS combat examples, fillable PDF sheets, rules summaries, campaigns and one-shots, beginners' intro) GURPS Discord, unofficial hangout and real-time chat |
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05-06-2019, 01:14 PM | #728 | |
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Alsea, OR
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Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games
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In PD1, MegaTraveller, Traveller:The New Era, 2300AD, Traveller 4th, WEG Star Wars, FFG Star Wars, Star Trek Adventures (and other 2d20 games), etc, the handling time for default is almost none. No lookups. PD1, if you haven't written it down already (almost invariant skill list), you halve the attribute and increase TN by 2. Doesn't matter which skill. Takes about 15 seconds for the guy who has to count fingers, by left then right... 1L 2R 3L 4R etc... In MT, T:TNE, T4, 2300: increase the difficulty by one step. WEG SW, FFG SW: attribute alone. (WEG 2E, some skills, marked as "Advanced Skills" are no default. The only ones that come to mind are Medicine and Naval Architecture.) In STA, it's roll normally, success on 1 to Attribute+Discipline, but double success is only on 1, not 1 to discipline. |
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05-08-2019, 12:45 PM | #729 |
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
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Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games
I did, but I also printed various cheat sheets to complement my GM screen, and I also have my NPC sheets, my paper for tracking combat order and NPC HPs, the current scenario, the campaign notes, etc... I still need to search through all that stuff :) Even if it takes 6 seconds in total, that's still a "break" in the action, especially when you have, like me, table rules for making action go fast fast fast (like, for example, players having only 3 seconds to announce their action, otherwise they are forced to take an All-Out-Defense or Wait maneuver)
Last edited by lordabdul; 05-08-2019 at 12:48 PM. |
05-08-2019, 06:47 PM | #730 |
Join Date: Jul 2006
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Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games
It about presentation. Something I learned during the 90s with 3rd edition. I created cheat sheets for character creations that distilled the options in the core books and supplements. My players preferred to use them then try to use the core books.
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