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Old 05-02-2019, 03:08 PM   #721
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games

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Originally Posted by ak_aramis View Post
4) GURPS is complex.
4.1) Too many overly narrow skills (G3 CI listed around 400 skills, many of which break down by TL or by culture/subculture)
So much this. A lot of the reason people complain about stats is because there are too many skills.
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Originally Posted by ak_aramis View Post
4.2) long lists of advantages and disadvantages (CI lists about 300 advantages and 250 disads)
Long lists aren't inherently problematic, look at spell lists in any edition of D&D or feat lists in 3.x, but I think there's something about organization and presentation that makes the way they work in GURPS harder than it needs to be.
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Originally Posted by ak_aramis View Post
4.4) paranormal powers aren't a unified system. (Magic is different from Psionics and supers)
While it cuts against the 'G' in GURPS, it's not at all obvious that players object to lack of unification. Look at how people complained that D&D 4.x made fighters into magic users.

A few more points:

If you want to play a hack and slash game, well, GURPS combat resolution is slow (it's not the only system like that), and things that make it faster usually make it extremely swingy, more so than IME players want.

A roll to hit in D&D normally requires only 2 arithmetic actions (one addition, one comparison), plus it requires reading a die. Situational modifiers can add additional arithmetic, how common that is depends on rules edition. Against equal foes, hit probability is usually 50+%
A roll to hit in GURPS normally requires at least 6 (roll 3d6, sum them, compare to skill, roll 3d6, sum them, compare to defense), and situational modifiers are very common at high skill levels because skill above 16 has no function other than permitting you to soak situational modifiers. Hit probability against an equal foe might be as low as 14% (combat reflexes, either fencing weapon or DB 2 shield, retreating).
A damage roll in D&D is one or more dice, plus adds; add the result to damage taken. Target goes down if accumulated damage exceeds hp, otherwise no additional resolution required.
A damage roll in GURPS is one or more dice, plus adds; subtract the target's DR (possibly adjusted by armor divisors), multiply penetrating damage based on location and weapon type, apply shock penalties, possibly roll for major wound effects and knockdown, possibly roll for consciousness.

There are reasons GURPS does the things it does, but they are not free.
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Old 05-03-2019, 03:21 AM   #722
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Default Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games

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Originally Posted by Gumby Bush View Post
Having read Hegel and Kant, GURPS is not a hard read and is not complex. ;)
And that immedately marks you as someone who isn't going to represent the majority of most randomly assembled groups, ie. you're not representative of the market in general. And the market is what decides which product is most popular.
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Old 05-03-2019, 05:25 AM   #723
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Default Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games

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And that immedately marks you as someone who isn't going to represent the majority of most randomly assembled groups, ie. you're not representative of the market in general. And the market is what decides which product is most popular.
My point exactly.

ETA: and I expect many of us here could write similar sentences.
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Old 05-03-2019, 06:08 AM   #724
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Default Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games

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Originally Posted by Gumby Bush View Post
My point exactly.

ETA: and I expect many of us here could write similar sentences.
Good.

I have seen others online who would have used similar points to declare that they should obviously be the ones who decide what is and isn't popular.
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Old 05-04-2019, 01:18 AM   #725
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Default Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games

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There are reasons GURPS does the things it does, but they are not free.
Indeed.

The price of relatively reasonable¹ simulation is mathematical and procedural complexity.

Combat is one area where abstraction is, for many, better than slow-playing detail. And where meaningful choices usually trump realism choices.

In re the comparison to the D&D spell lists.... players don't have access to the majority at start. The list available is limited by class, and by level, and thus increases over time; GURPS Skills, Advantages, and Disadvantages are usually 1/2 to 2/3 the list being available to any given PC... and while maybe 1/20th of the advantages are reasonable fits to the concept, what's reasonable for the sheet is some subset that needs be decided upon. Often that subset isn't selected by best fit to concept, but to point totals and/or bonus collection math.

The templates help somewhat... but those werre coming into GURPS when I was giving up on it. (between G:IOU and G:Ogre releases)

Let's look at one other thing... this time, comparing to Star Wars (WEG or FFG) and some Star Trek (PD One or STA)... Defaulting complexity.
In GURPS - I need to know what skill I'm missing. I then need to look up the default (there are too many to memorize, and they're also too many to put on the GM screen...). The lack of lookup, and the lack of reverse lookup of defaults (what defaults from the indexed skill) also is a hassle.

Meanwhile, while less realistic, in both mentioned star wars systems, I just use raw attribute. In both Star Trek games, there's a consistent penalty.
PD One, unskilled is a +2 to all TN's (remembering that it gives 3 TN's per action) and rolled on the average of skill and attribute as normal (so half attribute). In STA, if you have relevant focus, 1 success on Att+Disc or less, 2 on Disc or less; unskilled, 1 success on Att + Disc or less, 2 on nat 1.


-=-=-=-=-

¹ 1 second combat rounds are NOT reasonable. At least, not in my experiences... firefights last minutes, not seconds. Swordfights should have short bursts separated by multiple 5's of seconds... ISTR a G3E supplement having a rule for that.
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:43 PM   #726
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Default Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games

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Originally Posted by ak_aramis View Post
Defaulting complexity.
In GURPS - I need to know what skill I'm missing. I then need to look up the default (there are too many to memorize, and they're also too many to put on the GM screen...). The lack of lookup, and the lack of reverse lookup of defaults (what defaults from the indexed skill) also is a hassle.
This too. It's one of the few annoying aspects of GURPS -- I ask a player to roll a skill, they tell me they don't have it, and we have to pause the game for while I fumble around to find my book, find the table of skills at the end, and locate the skill. Often, to go faster, I actually eyeball it, like "this sounds like an Average skill, so roll DX-5". We might be off by one here and there but we'd rather keep going.

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1 second combat rounds are NOT reasonable. At least, not in my experiences... firefights last minutes, not seconds.
They last minutes when they don't last seconds :) As I get more experienced with GURPS, I tend to be increasingly liberal with dropping in and out of "action time". So the PCs might fire at some NPCs for a couple seconds and then dive for cover. Then, as they maneuver to try and flank the enemy, we "pull back" in terms of time resolution, not going turn by turn. And then bam! They run into one of the bad guys around a corner and suddenly it's back to what happens on a per second basis... but sometimes that never happened because the fight was indeed over in the first few seconds!

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Old 05-06-2019, 12:19 PM   #727
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Default Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games

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This too. It's one of the few annoying aspects of GURPS -- I ask a player to roll a skill, they tell me they don't have it, and we have to pause the game for while I fumble around to find my book, find the table of skills at the end, and locate the skill.
You should bookmark (or better yet, print out) the Trait Lists from pp. 297-306 :)

Every Ad, Disad, Skill, Technique and Spell (with page number, cost, type, difficulty, etc.).
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Old 05-06-2019, 01:14 PM   #728
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Default Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games

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Originally Posted by mook View Post
You should bookmark (or better yet, print out) the Trait Lists from pp. 297-306 :)

Every Ad, Disad, Skill, Technique and Spell (with page number, cost, type, difficulty, etc.).
That's still a hassle of handling time vs games with invariant default processes.

In PD1, MegaTraveller, Traveller:The New Era, 2300AD, Traveller 4th, WEG Star Wars, FFG Star Wars, Star Trek Adventures (and other 2d20 games), etc, the handling time for default is almost none. No lookups.

PD1, if you haven't written it down already (almost invariant skill list), you halve the attribute and increase TN by 2. Doesn't matter which skill. Takes about 15 seconds for the guy who has to count fingers, by left then right... 1L 2R 3L 4R etc...

In MT, T:TNE, T4, 2300: increase the difficulty by one step.

WEG SW, FFG SW: attribute alone. (WEG 2E, some skills, marked as "Advanced Skills" are no default. The only ones that come to mind are Medicine and Naval Architecture.)

In STA, it's roll normally, success on 1 to Attribute+Discipline, but double success is only on 1, not 1 to discipline.
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Old 05-08-2019, 12:45 PM   #729
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Default Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games

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Originally Posted by mook View Post
You should bookmark (or better yet, print out) the Trait Lists from pp. 297-306 :)
I did, but I also printed various cheat sheets to complement my GM screen, and I also have my NPC sheets, my paper for tracking combat order and NPC HPs, the current scenario, the campaign notes, etc... I still need to search through all that stuff :) Even if it takes 6 seconds in total, that's still a "break" in the action, especially when you have, like me, table rules for making action go fast fast fast (like, for example, players having only 3 seconds to announce their action, otherwise they are forced to take an All-Out-Defense or Wait maneuver)

Last edited by lordabdul; 05-08-2019 at 12:48 PM.
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Old 05-08-2019, 06:47 PM   #730
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Default Re: Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Long lists aren't inherently problematic, look at spell lists in any edition of D&D or feat lists in 3.x, but I think there's something about organization and presentation that makes the way they work in GURPS harder than it needs to be.
It about presentation. Something I learned during the 90s with 3rd edition. I created cheat sheets for character creations that distilled the options in the core books and supplements. My players preferred to use them then try to use the core books.
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