Ghosts and Mind Copies - The Identity Question

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by whswhs

That way lies Clever Hans.

I didn't say "sense of self"; I said "self-concept." Could you say to your dog, "Tell me how you figured out that trick with the apples?" and have her tell you the story? Could you ask her, "Do you think it's desirable to intoxicate yourself on fermented apples?" and have her discuss the tradeoffs being immediate pleasure and long-term displeasure, or long-term consequences from doing stupid things when drunk? Could you discuss with her whether she was drunk or not, or ask her how often she got drunk?

Bill Stoddard

I could ask a toddler that and wouldn't get an answer. I just don't see why language is absolutely necessary to have a self-concept. I think one can know the concept of "I" and "other" without actually saying it.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by whswhs

That way lies Clever Hans.

I didn't say "sense of self"; I said "self-concept." Could you say to your dog, "Tell me how you figured out that trick with the apples?" and have her tell you the story? Could you ask her, "Do you think it's desirable to intoxicate yourself on fermented apples?" and have her discuss the tradeoffs being immediate pleasure and long-term displeasure, or long-term consequences from doing stupid things when drunk? Could you discuss with her whether she was drunk or not, or ask her how often she got drunk?

Bill Stoddard

Now you're just begging the question. Specifically, you start defining self-concept through the ability to communicate in a human manner. If we're trying to discuss how sapient animals are, the first thing we should detach ourselves from is comparing them to humans. Otherwise, you'll never be able to measure how sapient someone is - only how close they are to humans in terms of thought processes.

Also note that you're used to thinking in words. That is not the only way to think. A good quote I remember reading from a person who was non-speaking (and didn't understand speech) until something like 12-14ish years old, then slowly started learning it, to illustrate the point: 'I just never could've guessed that people send thoughts through sound' (or something like that).

[vicky_molokh]

As for viewpoints and continuity:

Destructive uploading is a break of continuity and the ghost is your heir. But a coma isn't a break, and we don't need to file inheritance from our 'old self' when waking from a coma. Even if the coma was caused by stroke (thus causing a 'wake up with different personality' case). And going to a coma and waking up with no leg is apparently not a reason to file for inheritance either. That's not very consistent.

If you install a proprietary operational system on a redundant array of inexpensive disks, then move the partition around a couple of times, would you need to repeatedly re-register it and repeat paying the fee for it? I think not.

Is Ise Jingū, a shrine built anew every couple of decades, with new materials and all, not Ise Jingū anymore? It still is, after all those destructions and rebuildings.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by combatmedic

As I see it:

Transhumanism = atheism + fear of death + a desire to replace a 'dead' God with 'Trans-humanity'

There is serious speculation behind the technological assumptions and predictions of transhumanism, but the ideological thrust of the 'movement' is definitely mystical and religious in nature.

I'd agree with that, makes for interesting speculation on the different sects of atheism and how mystical they tend to get.

[combatmedic]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

I'd agree with that, makes for interesting speculation on the different sects of atheism and how mystical they tend to get.

Marxism is one of the major atheist sects. It's a messianic cult. Man is /will become God, end of the world, prophecy, sacred wisdom that shall never be questioned, priesthood, martyrs, paradise after the Great Event, etc...

[Fnordianslip]

Originally Posted by whswhs

"He" does not wake up. Not ever.

The idea that two entities with the same information content are somehow the same entity is sheer mysticism.

If the ghost is rational, he will not think of the situation as his still being alive, but as his having come into being with someone else's memories...

This reflects quite well my own views on ghosting. In the kinds of societies presented in THS, some have simply accepted that a consciousness with another consciousness's memories can be treated as the original. As you mention, a rational being would realize this. However, after a couple weeks of dealing with existence, the whole having copied memories thing would likely fade into the background. Sure, on some nights the idea might keep you awake, drinking virtual scotch and questioning reality, but that wouldn't be substantially different from the current reality. At least, for me it wouldn't. As long as the society as the whole embraces the illusion of continuity through brainpeeling, there really doesn't seem to be a problem. As for me, I'd wake up in my new body and say to myself, "Wow, I'm a copy of Fnordianslip's memories. Isn't that neat!" Then I'd get up and go about my day. Needless to say, this isn't ME per se, but it would think like me, act like me, and, more importantly, share the same values on passed down memories. If there were multiple copies of me, well, then we'd have to share virtual beers and chat about the nature of existence some more!

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Fnordianslip

This reflects quite well my own views on ghosting. In the kinds of societies presented in THS, some have simply accepted that a consciousness with another consciousness's memories can be treated as the original. As you mention, a rational being would realize this. However, after a couple weeks of dealing with existence, the whole having copied memories thing would likely fade into the background. Sure, on some nights the idea might keep you awake, drinking virtual scotch and questioning reality, but that wouldn't be substantially different from the current reality. At least, for me it wouldn't. As long as the society as the whole embraces the illusion of continuity through brainpeeling, there really doesn't seem to be a problem. As for me, I'd wake up in my new body and say to myself, "Wow, I'm a copy of Fnordianslip's memories. Isn't that neat!" Then I'd get up and go about my day. Needless to say, this isn't ME per se, but it would think like me, act like me, and, more importantly, share the same values on passed down memories. If there were multiple copies of me, well, then we'd have to share virtual beers and chat about the nature of existence some more!

Sure, it's not much of an issue for the ghost. The person it's an issue for is the pre-ghost. If you are considering digital uploading, do you think that you're looking forward to waking up in a shiny new cybershell that can sustain your existence and consciousness indefinitely (or transfer them to newer cybershells as it wears out)? Or do you think that you're going to lose consciousness for the last time, and never regain it, and have your place taken by some other being? Is a ghost really your ghost, or is it your doppelganger? That makes something of a difference, not to what you would do if you were a digital ghost after uploading, but to what you would want to do as an organic being with the option of uploading. Would you reserve it for a desperate last resort when you were dying anyway, or would you eagerly embrace it, like many healthy young people in the Japan of THS?

Bill Stoddard

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Molokh

Destructive uploading is a break of continuity and the ghost is your heir. But a coma isn't a break, and we don't need to file inheritance from our 'old self' when waking from a coma. Even if the coma was caused by stroke (thus causing a 'wake up with different personality' case). And going to a coma and waking up with no leg is apparently not a reason to file for inheritance either. That's not very consistent.

I think it's completely consistent, and it is beyond me to imagine why you could have any problem with it.

Bill Stoddard

[Fnordianslip]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Sure, it's not much of an issue for the ghost. The person it's an issue for is the pre-ghost...

Bill Stoddard

That really is the part where this question of continued identity becomes interesting. In many ways, I think it's a matter of how the society around you perceives ghosting. In my case, while not a last resort, it isn't something I'd jump for immediately either. However, I come from a society where information isn't viewed as continuance of identity. So, it would seem to be suicide to ghost myself and a bit of an oddity to do so early and leave behind an heir in what amounts to a computer that thinks like me. However, if I was in a society which had viewed it as an actual transfer of consciousness, or one that viewed identity and body as unimportant, then I'd probably ghost early in order to expand my horizons. Living in virtual realities, having a variety of bodies, and being able to fly around the solar system at the speed of light are all things which appeal to me. Come to think of it, I might ghost early just to have the happy knowledge that a copy of my experiences will have a chance to exist for far longer than my human form...

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Fnordianslip

That really is the part where this question of continued identity becomes interesting. In many ways, I think it's a matter of how the society around you perceives ghosting. In my case, while not a last resort, it isn't something I'd jump for immediately either. However, I come from a society where information isn't viewed as continuance of identity. So, it would seem to be suicide to ghost myself and a bit of an oddity to do so early and leave behind an heir in what amounts to a computer that thinks like me. However, if I was in a society which had viewed it as an actual transfer of consciousness, or one that viewed identity and body as unimportant, then I'd probably ghost early in order to expand my horizons. Living in virtual realities, having a variety of bodies, and being able to fly around the solar system at the speed of light are all things which appeal to me. Come to think of it, I might ghost early just to have the happy knowledge that a copy of my experiences will have a chance to exist for far longer than my human form...

Well, that depends on your position on the metaphysical nature of consciousness. I don't think that a society is free to arbitrarily postulate anything it wants about what consciousness is and how it works; I think some accounts of consciousness are true, others are false, and there are natural laws that determine which are which.

I haven't time right this instant to write about my own view of the matter, but I'll do so later if there's interest.

Bill Stoddard