Transhumanism and Society

[Astromancer]

My thesis is simple, any really signifigant Transhuman breakthough would radically alter society. Radical alterations of society would radically transform the power relationships within and between societies. Radical transformations of power relationships eventually lead to war, both because those who've lost power try to regain it, and those who've gained power want to use it.

If I came up with a wide-spectrum vaccine that, as a side effect, both heightened stats (I'm going to use gamespeak) and radically increased longevity, both effects coming form the fact of a strengthened immune system allowing fuller developement of the child's natural capassities, all societies would experience great pressures to use the vaccine. As societies with national health care systems suddenly had poppulations that were stronger, smarter, thougher, more agile, and much longer lived, than those that didn't, they'd struge ahead. Poorer nations would have trouble providing the same benefits to all and the children who got the benefits would be far less willing to let their elders rule the roost and exploit the land. Somewhere there would be violence. And all for improved health.

More dramatic forms of Transhumanism would lead to war far more quickly and between greater powers.

Many of the world's present day cultures are suffering from failure to thrive. Lack of Democracy and/or civil liberities holds many lands back. Add in a vast new advantage to the wealthy democracies and the poor nations would being to crack from the sheer misery of being left out or the rage of the people at governments that will fight to the death to prevent democracy.

In this environment, Transhumanism is the harbinger of wars.

Ojections? Counter Arguements? Refinements to my thesis? General reactions?

[combatmedic]

The general idea of transhumanist projects leading to violent power struggles, wars, political chaos, etc. appears plausible--indeed, quite likely in many scenarios.

You appear to have based the deeper analysis in this particular write-up on ideological assumptions about the way the world works that I don't buy into.



That said, I like the idea of wars over eugenic upgrades, super-vaccines, and so on. It's game worthy, for sure.

All IMHO & YMMV

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by combatmedic

You appear to have based the deeper analysis in this particular write-up on ideological assumptions about the way the world works that I don't buy into.

The basic points are: A) If you change something signifigantly, you change the power relationships it exists within. B) If you change the power relationships in any group, there will be some kind of conflict. C) The greater the change the greater the conflict. D) If you change the power relationships between nations, war is a likely form of conflict.

Since Transhumanism can make very basic changes that have vast implications, relatively large resaults would come out of the changes.

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

Somewhere there would be violence.

How is that different from now?

Originally Posted by Astromancer

And all for improved health.
...

Not all for improved health; some is for exploitation and disenfranchisment as you mentioned


Where were the smallpox vaccine wars, again?

[Flaco76]

Earlier today I was listening to the BBC talking about AIDS and the development of the drug cocktail using AZT in the treatment. For a while it was only used in the North or more developed world due to cost of the drugs and that it required a stringent schedule of treatment to prevent disease mutation. However, that was the 80's before the Internet, social media, more globalization and so on. So let us say you create this vaccine that creates healthier children, how much does it cost?

The West may have patent laws and governments/corporations with the resources willing to defend the patents. We also have places in the less developed world like China/India/Russia who are willing to reverse engineer products and technologies or simply obtain the technology. Good luck trying to enforce those patents since many people would be spending lots of money to obtain those vaccines. So now you would have the birth of the Biopunk age. You have people or classes that can purchase the latest genetic and medical upgrades and the ones who use the state approved versions and then the underground versions.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

How is that different from now?

As I see most wars coming out of attempts to modify the power relationships between nations, not much. It's simply a new cause. And a new cause with odd surprises along the way.

Not all for improved health; some is for exploitation and disenfranchisment as you mentioned

If the members of group A become much healthier, smarter, and longer lived than the members of group B, then group A will achieve many ambitions and goals that group B never had a chance to go for. Concider the medieval wars between Genoa and Veince. Genoa had scads of problems that Venice never had, Genoa had to divide it's energies in order to keep up with Venice. This led the people of Genoa to hate Venice in a way Venice never had to duplicate. Genoa thus took destructive risks and entered into wars with Venice for hatred of Venice and a desperate need to beat Venice. This behavior did hurt Venice, but it destroyed Genoa. Group B is in the role of Genoa.

Look at Russia. Putin is a fairly standard Kleptocrat and he needs to be afraid of democracy. When the Ukrainians looked at Russia and then the EU it didn't take long for the majority of them to say the EU looks better. The EU did nothing to Russia except stay independent of Russia and take good care of themselves. Russia has not taken good care of itself and the Ukrainians know this. Russian finds it can't compete with the EU by peaceful means, so he tries "war." I put war in quotes because I assume Putin would lie and say this isn't a war.

If I had the Magic to turn the whole USA transhuman tomorrow (pick your own bag of really impressive goodies), and I did that, every other nation on Earth would find it's relationships both to America and each other changed. If I quadrupled the average American's lifespan, thus allowing individual Americans to build skill and experience over generations of other peoples lives, how could those dependent on skilled industries hope to keep up? If I doubled the IQs (treating IQ as something real and meaningful here) of all Americans and gave every American a photographic memory and a knack for invention as well, who could tell what we'd do or come up with next? They'd be helpless children. They'd reject that role quickly.

Where were the smallpox vaccine wars, again?

Those nations that had the vaccine were more stable than those that didn't or were slow adopters. The 19th century records the fates of those that lacked that stability. Once improved medicine allow European exploration of Africa, European exploitation followed. Medicine has consequinces.

[combatmedic]

If I had the magic power to upgrade everybody in a state like that...I'd do it to the Russian Federation just to **** off Astromancer.

Soooper Putin!

Yes, I'm teasing you about bringing up off-topic current events.

That's an interesting Venice-Genoa analogy, BTW.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by combatmedic

If I had the magic power to upgrade everybody in a state like that...I'd do it to the Russian Federation just to **** off Astromancer.

Soooper Putin!

Yes, I'm teasing you about bringing up off-topic current events.

That's an interesting Venice-Genoa analogy, BTW.

If you gave Putin both Empathy and foresight, I wonder if he'd change for the better?

[smurf]

You are both misconstruing that society is based on the will of individuals and not the will of a class wanting the best deal and position out of society.

In Appleseed there are biroids that do not complain. They can do the worst work in crappy conditions and die at the end of it without complaining.

Scenarios that were in Equilibrium and THX 1138 and Gattaca.

Is Transhumanism about control over society. Not about helping everyone but helping society to move along. All forms of rebellion quashed, individuality crushed with only the wealthiest allowed to have any form of expression.

Penal codes would be designed to speed up ageing (Zardoz). Why imprison people when you can take 2 years out of their life instead or more.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

If I quadrupled the average American's lifespan, thus allowing individual Americans to build skill and experience over generations of other peoples lives, how could those dependent on skilled industries hope to keep up? If I doubled the IQs (treating IQ as something real and meaningful here) of all Americans and gave every American a photographic memory and a knack for invention as well, who could tell what we'd do or come up with next? They'd be helpless children. They'd reject that role quickly.

Why do you think such advances would remain an American monopoly? The profit to be had from selling them ensures they'll spread rapidly. This would put the US in a very advantageous position, of course, but making war has never been the way to deal with another country's technological advantage.