[HT vs. LT?] TL5+ versions of TL4- metal armor

Gurps Fan · 10-21-2010, 12:32 AM

According to High-Tech (p. 65), metal armor (mail, scale, plate, etc.) made with TL5+ steel and machining has either (a) twice the DR for the same cost and weight or (b) the same DR for half the weight and cost.

(a) How does this doubling interact with Hardened Steel and Duplex Plate options (Low-Tech, p. 110)? Also, how does it affect the "DR -X vs. specific damage type" properties of various armors?

Example: TL4 Light Plate torso armor gets +1 DR by adopting Hardened Steel (+4 CF), for the total of DR 4. Does the TL5 version of this armor get DR (base 3) * (2 for TL) + (1 for Hardened Steel) = DR 7, or DR (base 3 + 1 for Hardened Steel) * (2 for TL) = DR 8? Or is TL5 armor forbidden to have the Hardened Steel option because it's already made of steel? Then, what if I enhance my TL5 plate armor with Duplex Plate? And what CF do they have at TL5?

Example: TL2 Light Mail has DR 3, but suffers -2 DR vs. crushing damage. Then, against crushing attacks, does the TL5 version of this armor get DR (base 3) * (2 for TL) - (2 for crushing) = DR 4, or DR (base 3 - 2 for crushing) * (2 for TL) = DR 2? What if I add the Banded Mail option (Low-Tech, p. 107)?

(b) Does this halving mean that at TL5 we have an option that gives -0.5 CF and -50% weight, or does this halve the final weight and cost?

Example: If a TL5 version of Light Plate torso armor (base $1,000) is enhanced with Expert Tailoring (Low-Tech, p. 110; +5 CF and -15% weight), does it have $5,500 and 2.8 lbs. (+5 CF plus -0.5 CF; -15% plus -50%) or $3,000 and 3.4 lbs. (+5 CF and then *0.5; -15% and then *0.5)?

DanHoward · 10-21-2010, 01:05 AM

I wouldn't allow the rule in High Tech to kick in until TL6. At TL5 I'd allow hardened steel to be purchased at regular prices and I'd allow regular plate to be purchased at cheap prices.

Gurps Fan · 10-21-2010, 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanHoward

I wouldn't allow the rule in High Tech to kick in until TL6. At TL5 I'd allow hardened steel to be purchased at regular prices and I'd allow regular plate to be purchased at cheap prices.

Thank you for the reply, Dan-sensei. But, actually, I'm planning to introduce modern-material versions -- made of steel or titanium -- of old-fashioned armor into my TL8 campaign.

Anthony · 10-21-2010, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gurps Fan

Thank you for the reply, Dan-sensei. But, actually, I'm planning to introduce modern-material versions -- made of steel or titanium -- of old-fashioned armor into my TL8 campaign.

Un-alloyed, titanium is about as strong as low-grade steel and 45% lighter; it would be less of an improvement relative to higher grade steels (bulletproof titanium-alloy plates are more like 25-30% lighter than equivalent steel plates).

Gurps Fan · 10-21-2010, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony

Un-alloyed, titanium is about as strong as low-grade steel and 45% lighter; it would be less of an improvement relative to higher grade steels (bulletproof titanium-alloy plates are more like 25-30% lighter than equivalent steel plates).

Sorry, but I'm aware of that and I used the word "titanium" in the same sense as High-Tech. See the High-Tech Low-Tech box on p. 65 of High-Tech, which lists "titanium" as an armor option available at TL8.

Desthro · 10-21-2010, 03:36 PM

a) I am not familiar with it, but since you get double DR, armor made of "hardened" TL5 materials would be (3*2)+1 in this case. I wouldn't get too hung up on the materials since GURPS is more of a flavor-oriented game. If they meant for it to be specific, they would make the notation. (usually) You double the base and then add the modifier. Now, you could consider scaling the bonus, based upon tens of DR, so 20 DR yields +2 DR for being "hardened", 30DR +3 DR ...

In example 2, I would follow the GURPS Basic, saying its DR3, or DR1 vs Crushing for being flexible, and then double that to DR6 or DR2. (Since that standard already exists and is just mentioned for ease in the LT apparently)

I am unfamiliar with the Banded mail option, but I would apply the same litmus test and see if there are other instances of your examples already in the book.

b) I would halve the weight and cost of the final weight/cost because the reductions in cost are designed to represent advances in manufacturing technique and materials.

Gurps Fan · 10-21-2010, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desthro

a) I am not familiar with it, but since you get double DR, armor made of "hardened" TL5 materials would be (3*2)+1 in this case.

Thank you for the reply. The author says that hardened steel can be purchased at CF +0 at TL5. Does that "armor made of 'hardened' TL5 materials" mean we can buy steel that's more hardened than hardened steel for CF +4? I'm confused.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desthro

In example 2, I would follow the GURPS Basic, saying its DR3, or DR1 vs Crushing for being flexible, and then double that to DR6 or DR2.

That's reasonable and I'm not objecting, but could you please tell me what page of Basic Set you're following? I coudn't find that rule.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desthro

b) I would halve the weight and cost of the final weight/cost because the reductions in cost are designed to represent advances in manufacturing technique and materials.

Sounds reasonable.

DanHoward · 10-22-2010, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gurps Fan

Does that "armor made of 'hardened' TL5 materials" mean we can buy steel that's more hardened than hardened steel for CF +4? I'm confused.

All it means is that, at TL5, you can purchase TL4 hardened steel without the +4 CF.

Gurps Fan · 10-22-2010, 03:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanHoward

All it means is that, at TL5, you can purchase TL4 hardened steel without the +4 CF.

Thanks, Dan-sensei. Then, at TL5, what CF do we need to pay for the Duplex Plate option (+8 CF at TL4)? Duplex Plate includes Hardened Steel, so it should cost less than listed because Hardened Steel is discounted to +0 CF.

And can we safely say that TL6+ steel armors have the doubled DR for +0 CF, and have the listed -- non-doubled -- DR if modified with the Cheap option (-0.6 CF, but no "DR -1")?

munin · 10-22-2010, 09:29 AM

So ... all mutually exclusive:

Duplex Plate (TL4): +1 DR, -10% weight, +8 CF.
Hardened Steel (TL4): +1 DR, +4 CF.

Duplex Plate (TL5): +1 DR, -10% weight, +4 CF.
Hardened Steel (TL5): +1 DR, +0 CF.
Efficient-Manufacturing Steel (TL5): no changes, -0.6 CF.

Machined Steel (TL6): ×2 DR or ×1/2 weight, +0 CF.

Titanium (TL8): ×1/3 weight, +4 CF.

10-21-2010, 12:32 AM	#1
Gurps Fan Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Japan	[HT vs. LT?] TL5+ versions of TL4- metal armor According to *High-Tech* (p. 65), metal armor (mail, scale, plate, etc.) made with TL5+ steel and machining has either (a) twice the DR for the same cost and weight or (b) the same DR for half the weight and cost. (a) How does this doubling interact with Hardened Steel and Duplex Plate options (Low-Tech, p. 110)? Also, how does it affect the "DR -X vs. specific damage type" properties of various armors? Example: TL4 Light Plate torso armor gets +1 DR by adopting Hardened Steel (+4 CF), for the total of DR 4. Does the TL5 version of this armor get DR (base 3) * (2 for TL) + (1 for Hardened Steel) = DR 7, or DR (base 3 + 1 for Hardened Steel) * (2 for TL) = DR 8? Or is TL5 armor forbidden to have the Hardened Steel option because it's already made of steel? Then, what if I enhance my TL5 plate armor with Duplex Plate? And what CF do they have at TL5? Example: TL2 Light Mail has DR 3, but suffers -2 DR vs. crushing damage. Then, against crushing attacks, does the TL5 version of this armor get DR (base 3) * (2 for TL) - (2 for crushing) = DR 4, or DR (base 3 - 2 for crushing) * (2 for TL) = DR 2? What if I add the Banded Mail option (Low-Tech, p. 107)? (b) Does this halving mean that at TL5 we have an option that gives -0.5 CF and -50% weight, or does this halve the final weight and cost? Example: If a TL5 version of Light Plate torso armor (base $1,000) is enhanced with Expert Tailoring (Low-Tech, p. 110; +5 CF and -15% weight), does it have $5,500 and 2.8 lbs. (+5 CF plus -0.5 CF; -15% plus -50%) or $3,000 and 3.4 lbs. (+5 CF and then 0.5; -15% and then 0.5)? __________________ Gurps Fan, a rules lawyer from the mysterious country of ninja, samurai, and magical girls, the inventor of M.U.N.C.H.K.I.N.

10-21-2010, 01:05 AM	#2
DanHoward Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia	Re: [HT vs. LT?] TL5+ versions of TL4- metal armor I wouldn't allow the rule in High Tech to kick in until TL6. At TL5 I'd allow hardened steel to be purchased at regular prices and I'd allow regular plate to be purchased at cheap prices.

10-21-2010, 03:36 PM	#6
Desthro Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Albuquerque	Re: [HT vs. LT?] TL5+ versions of TL4- metal armor a) I am not familiar with it, but since you get double DR, armor made of "hardened" TL5 materials would be (32)+1 in this case. I wouldn't get too hung up on the materials since GURPS is more of a flavor-oriented game. If they meant for it to be specific, they would make the notation. (usually) You double the base and then add the modifier. Now, you could consider scaling* the bonus, based upon tens of DR, so 20 DR yields +2 DR for being "hardened", 30DR +3 DR ... In example 2, I would follow the GURPS Basic, saying its DR3, or DR1 vs Crushing for being flexible, and then double that to DR6 or DR2. (Since that standard already exists and is just mentioned for ease in the LT apparently) I am unfamiliar with the Banded mail option, but I would apply the same litmus test and see if there are other instances of your examples already in the book. b) I would halve the weight and cost of the final weight/cost because the reductions in cost are designed to represent advances in manufacturing technique and materials.

10-22-2010, 09:29 AM	#10
munin Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Vermont, USA	Re: [HT vs. LT?] TL5+ versions of TL4- metal armor So ... all mutually exclusive: Duplex Plate (TL4): +1 DR, -10% weight, +8 CF. Hardened Steel (TL4): +1 DR, +4 CF. Duplex Plate (TL5): +1 DR, -10% weight, +4 CF. Hardened Steel (TL5): +1 DR, +0 CF. Efficient-Manufacturing Steel (TL5): no changes, -0.6 CF. Machined Steel (TL6): ×2 DR or ×1/2 weight, +0 CF. Titanium (TL8): ×1/3 weight, +4 CF.