Learning spells

hcobb · 09-29-2018, 02:53 PM

Researching New Spells ITL-144 is incorrect in (assuming he had an extra IQ point of learning capacity for it) as this no longer applies. I would remove this entirely. The experience of doing the research is then consumed in adding the spell to the wizard's spell and talent pool. Anybody can research an existing spell they've seen and pay the cost in time, silver and risk to re-research it instead of just reading it in a book and paying the normal XP for it if they really really want to.

BTW: Does casting the spell yourself from a scroll count for "may research it once the spell has been used in their presence."

Also Learning New Spells on the same page needs a note that the wizard must have a source for the spells he learns. Being in the friendly company of someone who knows the spells or causally reading a book with the spell on off hours for IQ level weeks should be sufficient.

Skarg · 09-29-2018, 03:14 PM

Isn't research for developing a new spell, or one you have no book or teacher for?

See, Advanced Wizard used to have nice rules for how to learn spells from books or teachers if you had free IQ points to fill up. The "spell research" rules were for when you had no access to a teacher or book, or wanted to try to invent a new spell.

platimus · 09-29-2018, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skarg

Isn't research for developing a new spell, or one you have no book or teacher for?

It is. But he is pointing out that the new system doesn't use IQ slots, therefore, the reference (in italics) to that should be removed.

Quote:

See, Advanced Wizard used to have nice rules for how to learn spells from books or teachers if you had free IQ points to fill up. The "spell research" rules were for when you had no access to a teacher or book, or wanted to try to invent a new spell.

There are still rules there suggesting where Wizards will find new spells to use (Wizard's Guild, Books, Scrolls). Again, after character creation, you don't use "IQ memory slots". I believe the intent is that you DON'T learn a spell without a teacher or reference material. I think this is great. Of course, you're always free to house-rule it. The way the new system makes you pay XP to learn the spell can count as your "research" into learning it if you don't have a source but want to allow that sort of thing. Also, the very last paragraph of ITL p. 144 leaves the door cracked-open for "learning without a source".

Skarg · 09-29-2018, 04:43 PM

I agree that there should be a source for learning all spells and languages and most talents. I also think it should take time (as the missing 5 paragraphs detailed).

New ITL (in at least two places IIRC) says (when a player spends XP and gains a spell or talent) something like "assume that the PC was studying it while they were gaining the XP"... which partly makes sense to me, and partly doesn't work, since the choice is presumably made at the end, and what about the need for having had access to something relevant to learn from?

Again, I'll re-scan ITL (it's a bit cumbersome for me via PDF on a screen), but I had the impression that if you increase IQ (or have empty space) you could still learn things to fill in the unused talent/spell points, and that the 500XP per talent/spell point was just for breaking above that limit.

It also seems really out of wack to have the attribute costs so low (100 up to 34 points!) but the only way to learn a new talent be 500 to 1500 XP.

platimus · 09-29-2018, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skarg

It also seems really out of wack to have the attribute costs so low (100 up to 34 points!) but the only way to learn a new talent be 500 to 1500 XP.

It seems perfectly logical and, um, just perfect to me. ITL characters start with so many talents/spells already. Let them reach "physical and mental maturity" before funneling them to learn more talents/skills.

Skarg · 09-29-2018, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by platimus

It seems perfectly logical and, um, just perfect to me. ITL characters start with so many talents/spells already. Let them reach "physical and mental maturity" before funneling them to learn more talents/skills.

They do?

Glom the Adventurer
ST 11
DX 11
IQ 10
Sword, Shield, Bow
Running, Alertness, Horsemanship

Those are "so many talents"?

His next goals in life are to learn to swim, or to be decent at fighting with an axe. He's also interested in being more capable (increasing attributes).

He could learn the Swimming talent for 500 XP.
He could learn Ax/Mace for 1000 XP.

or

He could gain +3 attributes for only 400 XP.
He could gain +4 attributes for only 700 XP.
He could gain +5 attributes for only 1500 XP.

So basically, he's not going to be able to learn to swim, or to fight with an ax, until he has spent as much XP to be able to go from an unimpressive fighter to someone who is a very deadly fighter (but not able to swim or use an axe in combat). He could raise his DX from 11 to 15 for 700 XP, but gaining Ax/Mace, that's 1000 XP.

Is that still perfectly logical and just perfect to you?

Steve Jackson · 09-29-2018, 05:34 PM

Yep. I have deleted the clause to which Henry took exception. Thanks.

platimus · 09-29-2018, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skarg

They do?

Glom the Adventurer
ST 11
DX 11
IQ 10
Sword, Shield, Bow
Running, Alertness, Horsemanship

Those are "so many talents"?

His next goals in life are to learn to swim, or to be decent at fighting with an axe. He's also interested in being more capable (increasing attributes).

He could learn the Swimming talent for 500 XP.
He could learn Ax/Mace for 1000 XP.

or

He could gain +3 attributes for only 400 XP.
He could gain +4 attributes for only 700 XP.
He could gain +5 attributes for only 1500 XP.

So basically, he's not going to be able to learn to swim, or to fight with an ax, until he has spent as much XP to be able to go from an unimpressive fighter to someone who is a very deadly fighter (but not able to swim or use an axe in combat). He could raise his DX from 11 to 15 for 700 XP, but gaining Ax/Mace, that's 1000 XP.

Is that still perfectly logical and just perfect to you?

Yes. 6 talents for a starting character is plenty.

Skarg · 09-29-2018, 06:54 PM

Ok (even though all he really knows how to do is fight or ride a horse).

And the XP costs to raise the first several attributes until you far outclass average people is perfect for you, compared to adding a talent or two?

On another aspect of learning spells, I notice that if new spells cost wizards 500 XP, the first attributes are only 100, 100, 200, 400, and raising IQ doesn't let you learn another spell, that it really gives a LOT of incentive to starting with a high IQ.

That is, from the point of view of wanting to learn spells in future and looking at XP costs to get there, each point of IQ is like getting 500 XP worth of spells.

e.g. an experienced PC wizard:
ST 9
DX 12
IQ 15
16 talents and spells

How did he get there, and what did it cost?

Well if he started at:
ST 9
DX 12
IQ 11
then he spent 800 XP to raise attributes, and 2500 XP to learn spells.
Total: 3300

If he started at:
ST 8
DX 9
IQ 15
then he spent 800 XP to raise attributes, and 500 XP to learn spells.
Total: 1300

And someone who started at:
ST 8
DX 8
IQ 16
and went to:
ST 8
DX 12
IQ 16
16 spells
then it would only cost 800 XP.

In other words, starting with as much IQ as you can stand and survive will get you to the same place much faster than if you don't and then have to spend 500 XP to learn each talent or spell you want.

platimus · 09-29-2018, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skarg

Ok (even though all he really knows how to do is fight or ride a horse).

Everybody has to start somewhere. I think you underestimate Glom's potential to become a valuable member of the team :)

Quote:

And the XP costs to raise the first several attributes until you far outclass average people is perfect for you, compared to adding a talent or two?

I just addressed this with you in another thread. I do think Talents are a slightly too pricey. I'd go for a 400, 800, 1200 scale.

Quote:

On another aspect of learning spells, I notice that if new spells cost wizards 500 XP, the first attributes are only 100, 100, 200, 400, and raising IQ doesn't let you learn another spell, that it really gives a LOT of incentive to starting with a high IQ.

That is, from the point of view of wanting to learn spells in future and looking at XP costs to get there, each point of IQ is like getting 500 XP worth of spells.

e.g. an experienced PC wizard:
ST 9
DX 12
IQ 15
16 talents and spells

How did he get there, and what did it cost?

Well if he started at:
ST 9
DX 12
IQ 11
then he spent 800 XP to raise attributes, and 2500 XP to learn spells.
Total: 3300

If he started at:
ST 8
DX 9
IQ 15
then he spent 800 XP to raise attributes, and 500 XP to learn spells.
Total: 1300

And someone who started at:
ST 8
DX 8
IQ 16
and went to:
ST 8
DX 12
IQ 16
16 spells
then it would only cost 800 XP.

In other words, starting with as much IQ as you can stand and survive will get you to the same place much faster than if you don't and then have to spend 500 XP to learn each talent or spell you want.

Is that really a bad thing? Why?

I'll say this though, as a house-rule, I'll probably let wizards learn spells above their IQ. But they'll have a DX penalty when casting it. (Spell IQ - caster IQ = DX penalty)

09-29-2018, 02:53 PM	#1
hcobb Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Pacheco, California	Learning spells Researching New Spells ITL-144 is incorrect in (assuming he had an extra IQ point of learning capacity for it) as this no longer applies. I would remove this entirely. The experience of doing the research is then consumed in adding the spell to the wizard's spell and talent pool. Anybody can research an existing spell they've seen and pay the cost in time, silver and risk to re-research it instead of just reading it in a book and paying the normal XP for it if they really really want to. BTW: Does casting the spell yourself from a scroll count for "may research it once the spell has been used in their presence." Also Learning New Spells on the same page needs a note that the wizard must have a source for the spells he learns. Being in the friendly company of someone who knows the spells or causally reading a book with the spell on off hours for IQ level weeks should be sufficient. __________________ -HJC Last edited by hcobb; 09-29-2018 at 02:59 PM.

09-29-2018, 03:14 PM	#2
Skarg Join Date: May 2015	Re: Learning spells Isn't research for developing a new spell, or one you have no book or teacher for? See, Advanced Wizard used to have nice rules for how to learn spells from books or teachers if you had free IQ points to fill up. The "spell research" rules were for when you had no access to a teacher or book, or wanted to try to invent a new spell.

09-29-2018, 04:43 PM	#4
Skarg Join Date: May 2015	Re: Learning spells I agree that there should be a source for learning all spells and languages and most talents. I also think it should take time (as the missing 5 paragraphs detailed). New ITL (in at least two places IIRC) says (when a player spends XP and gains a spell or talent) something like "assume that the PC was studying it while they were gaining the XP"... which partly makes sense to me, and partly doesn't work, since the choice is presumably made at the end, and what about the need for having had access to something relevant to learn from? Again, I'll re-scan ITL (it's a bit cumbersome for me via PDF on a screen), but I had the impression that if you increase IQ (or have empty space) you could still learn things to fill in the unused talent/spell points, and that the 500XP per talent/spell point was just for breaking above that limit. It also seems really out of wack to have the attribute costs so low (100 up to 34 points!) but the only way to learn a new talent be 500 to 1500 XP.

09-29-2018, 05:34 PM	#7
Steve Jackson President and EIC Join Date: Jul 2004	Re: Learning spells Yep. I have deleted the clause to which Henry took exception. Thanks.

09-29-2018, 06:54 PM	#9
Skarg Join Date: May 2015	Re: Learning spells Ok (even though all he really knows how to do is fight or ride a horse). And the XP costs to raise the first several attributes until you far outclass average people is perfect for you, compared to adding a talent or two? On another aspect of learning spells, I notice that if new spells cost wizards 500 XP, the first attributes are only 100, 100, 200, 400, and raising IQ doesn't let you learn another spell, that it really gives a LOT of incentive to starting with a high IQ. That is, from the point of view of wanting to learn spells in future and looking at XP costs to get there, each point of IQ is like getting 500 XP worth of spells. e.g. an experienced PC wizard: ST 9 DX 12 IQ 15 16 talents and spells How did he get there, and what did it cost? Well if he started at: ST 9 DX 12 IQ 11 then he spent 800 XP to raise attributes, and 2500 XP to learn spells. Total: 3300 If he started at: ST 8 DX 9 IQ 15 then he spent 800 XP to raise attributes, and 500 XP to learn spells. Total: 1300 And someone who started at: ST 8 DX 8 IQ 16 and went to: ST 8 DX 12 IQ 16 16 spells then it would only cost 800 XP. In other words, starting with as much IQ as you can stand and survive will get you to the same place much faster than if you don't and then have to spend 500 XP to learn each talent or spell you want.