When is a Dodge comitted?

[larsdangly]

I don't think this is so hard. There are a couple of ambiguities that have been pointed out, but they can be cleared up with a change of a word or two rather than totally re doing the options list. To wit, gathering points raised across a couple of related threads: need to be sure you can attempt to enter HTH as an action after you have moved some significant distance (i.e., it should follow the rules of an attack, which can be done as part of a charge or when you start the turn engaged; need to be sure you can defend when someone makes a melee attack against you from a couple of hexes away (like, with a spear). And I think nothing needs to be done about dodge because the rules already make it clear you can do it when most people think you should be able to do it. That's it, right?

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Steve Jackson

That gets to the meat of what confuses me about this thread. I think the new wording means the same as the old wording and is simpler. The old language is sort of like "give, devise, and bequeath" - it seems to me to repeat itself. If I don't see the problem it would not be responsible of me to type in a suggestion that I don't understand.

I'll look at it again in the morning. Running out of time here.

The problem is how many people read the new rules as referring them to the options list, which leads many people to see unintended restrictions (which contradict the omitted rule that during the action phase, you can switch to attack, defend, or dodge if you've only moved 1/2 MA):

1) Wulf moves up to 1/2 MA and chooses Dodge.
People were reading the new rules and arguing that Wulf cannot switch to any other action because the Dodge option is worded "Move up to half its MA while dodging" and taking that as meaning they acted, because the description says "while dodging", as if that indicates the figure has acted during Movement and therefore can't change options.

2) Igor moves between 2 hexes and 1/2 MA, says he'll attack if someone engages him. A foe then moves 2 hexes from Igor and intends to 2-hex jab Igor with a polearm. No one moves adjacent to Igor.
People were reading the new rules and claiming two reasons why Igor could not switch to Defend against the polearm:
a) He moved more than one hex, and (since Defend is listed as an option for engaged people) they think that means Defend requires you to move only one hex.
b) They argue that Defend is listed as an option only for engaged people.

3) Wanda is disengaged but moves only one hex and declares Disbelieve. A foe then engages her.
People were reading the new rules and thinking Wanda can't switch to Defend or any other engaged option, because she wasn't engaged at the start of the turn.

And also other restrictions people have invented in the absence of the line that says the only restriction is how far you moved, such as:

4) Arn Defends. His adjacent foes go first and choose not to attack Arn.
Some people think Arn isn't free to change his option after his foes attack other people and ignore him.

So that's why the old line under Changing Options "The only requirement is that the new figure must not already have moved more than the NEW option allows" is needed and not redundant, and also why we need the call-out to Attack, Defend and Dodge all being available if the figure moved 1/2 MA or less (NOT thinking Defend requires you to only move 1 just because it's listed as an option that makes sense while engaged).

Here is a suggested edit (changes shown in bold):

ITL page 102:

"The options available to a figure depend on whether it is engaged, disengaged, or in HTH combat at the moment its turn to move comes.
During a turn, a player may change his mind about a figure’s option, as long as
• that figure has not yet acted, and
• that figure did not move too far to allow it to take the new option."
-->
"The options available to a figure during Movement depend on whether it is engaged, disengaged, or in HTH combat at the moment its turn to move comes.
During the Actions segment, a player may change his mind about a figure’s option, as long as
• that figure has not yet acted, and
• that figure did not move too far to allow it to take the new option (1/2 MA for engaged options (j)(k)(n)(o))."

"A figure which is not engaged with an enemy when its turn comes to move may perform any one of the following options:"
-->
"A figure which is not engaged with an enemy when its turn comes to move may declare any one of the following options:"

"(c) DODGE. Move up to half its MA while dodging (see p. 117)."
-->
"(c) DODGE. Move up to half its MA and dodge (see p. 117)."

ITL page 103:

"A figure which is engaged with an enemy (see definition, p. 101) when its turn comes to move may perform any one of the following options:"
-->
"A figure which is engaged with an enemy (see definition, p. 101) when its turn comes to move may declare any one of the following options:"


The point Lars just mentioned about entering HTH during movement is related but a different issue which would call for a different edit, but I think that one is less unclear as long as you believe the HTH rules know more about HTH than the options list (which some people don't). Again, people are relying on the Options list too much, even though the ITL HTH rules say a disengaged figure initiates HTH as a regular move, because they don't see an option for disengaged figures (there was one on the Advanced Melee options list). And/or maybe the read the last sentence of the first paragraph of the HTH rule on page 116 (which says "Initiating HTH combat is considered an attack.", and never make it to the second paragraph while looking for that, where they could read "If the attacking fgure is disengaged, this is a regular move".

[platimus]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

I don't think this is so hard. There are a couple of ambiguities that have been pointed out, but they can be cleared up with a change of a word or two rather than totally re doing the options list. To wit, gathering points raised across a couple of related threads: need to be sure you can attempt to enter HTH as an action after you have moved some significant distance (i.e., it should follow the rules of an attack, which can be done as part of a charge or when you start the turn engaged; need to be sure you can defend when someone makes a melee attack against you from a couple of hexes away (like, with a spear). And I think nothing needs to be done about dodge because the rules already make it clear you can do it when most people think you should be able to do it. That's it, right?

Pretty much. The "or act" words I added in the HTH thread are enough, I think, to get people thinking in the right direction if they've never played TFT before.
http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...21&postcount=7

The only problem left after that is the fact that you can't Defend against a Jab (the way the options/rules are worded). I honestly still think that one may be intentional. If you don't want Jabber to eat your lunch, you better engage him.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by platimus

The only problem left after that is the fact that you can't Defend against a Jab (the way the options/rules are worded). I honestly still think that one may be intentional. If you don't want Jabber to eat your lunch, you better engage him.

The issue in all these is that someone moving second when there are disengaged foes often has little ability to know who will attack them in what way from where, so telling them "nope, you can't switch to an appropriate action for the situation you couldn't predict (and that your opponent chose after they saw you move and declare and option" is an awful position to be in which can't fairly be blamed on the choices of the person forces to move first.

Also it wasn't that way in Advanced Melee, where it listed that the only thing making attack, defend, or dodge invalid was moving over 1/2 MA.

[RobW]

In case I'm not too late! Suggestions in bold

Upvote for Skarg's rewording on (c) Move up to half its MA and dodge (see p. 117).

Upvote for Skarg's rewordings to p. 101 to declare rather than perform options.

Add "or attempt HTH (see p. 117)" to option (b).

As space is tight, you could change option (o):
(o) ATTEMPT HAND-TO-HAND ATTACK. See p 117 for HTH rules.

This would free up space and avoid any inconsistency.

Add DEFEND as an option for disengaged figures. I assume this is meant to be move up to 1/2 MA, but perhaps maximum of one hex. Either way would be specified in the option text.

In theory, DROP should probably also be available to engaged figures but honestly not a priority to address what is possibly the most foolish action possible.

For the FAQ one day I would suggest:
I moved 1/2 my MA and was planning to charge attack. My foe was killed before I could act and now someone is shooting me! Can I switch to the Dodge option? YES

I moved 1/2 my MA and was planning to dodge. Luckily the archer was knocked down by my friend before I was shot and the archer now lies helpless at my feet. Can I switch to Charge Attack? YES