Impressions of ITL - Page 2

Shostak · 09-28-2018, 08:49 PM

I've not gotten too far into ITL, but I like it so far.

My one preliminary critique is that while the writing style can considered correct with regard to gender, such as using "he" as a default for a gender-neutral pronoun, it now sounds a little fusty. More often these days (actually it goes back at least a couple hundred years), "they" and "their" are being used. I bring this up mostly because of the growing number of girls and women now active in the RPG community. Consider the difference of impression created by a simple change of "men" to "people" in the sentence "The world is filled with many different beasts and men ..." Substituting "people" for "men" probably doesn't change the intended meaning of the sentence, and it sounds much more inclusive.

Its odd, because I learned to compose using the masculine for gender-neutral, and every time I read and find it not used, it sets off alarms deeply planted by drill-sergeant nuns. But now, every time I do see it used, that also sets off alarms!

Anyway, to anyone planning on writing TFT material under the SJG license, or to SJ himself if he is open to style editing before printing, please at least consider adopting this style. It might just help attract and retain an important portion of the gaming community.

Skarg · 09-28-2018, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shostak

My one preliminary critique is that while the writing style can considered correct with regard to gender, such as using "he" as a default for a gender-neutral pronoun ...

I noticed that in some cases, Steve has switched some of the cases of "he" to "she"...

Keysh · 09-29-2018, 05:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skarg

I noticed that in some cases, Steve has switched some of the cases of "he" to "she"...

But it's still really, really rare. A quick search through the ITL PDF file suggests that "he/his/him" outnumbers "she/her" by about 10 to 1. (Maybe more, because I was mostly just going on page counts, but there are quite a few pages where "he" is used ten or fifteen times, but few or non where "she" is used that often.

There's a very limited number of "he/she" cases, but a quick comparisons suggests those are carried over from the original edition. If you discount those, then male-only pronouns outnumber female-only pronouns at least 20 to 1.

I agree with Shostak: this strikes me as weird, unnecessary, and potentially off-putting. It's retro in a bad way, not retro in a good or neutral way, and I can imagine reviews and commentary from non-TFT-diehards critiquing or even mocking it for precisely this reason.

(I also noticed that the artwork seemed rather male-dominated, but maybe that will change when more of the artwork comes in. I do kind of get the impression that Rick Hershey doesn't like drawing female characters...)

larsdangly · 09-29-2018, 10:05 AM

Balanced use of gender is expected in almost every context in modern writing. The author understands that - that is why some of the new talent entries and a few other spots use 'she'. If I were in charge of this, I would have done the same thing, but finished the thought by presenting an actually balanced mix of pronouns and so forth.

Bestial Warlust · 09-29-2018, 10:33 AM

As a complete newbie the ITL I find the read interesting so far. I was unaware of this game until a few years earlier and had been intrigued to see what it was like. While not a fan of the GURPS system I did like the supplements for use in other games and was interested in seeing what the designer of GURPS had come up with in the early days.

I'm glad I backed the KS and I hope to run a trial session to see how it plays out and what my players think of the overall system.

GlennDoren · 09-29-2018, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keysh

(I also noticed that the artwork seemed rather male-dominated, but maybe that will change when more of the artwork comes in. I do kind of get the impression that Rick Hershey doesn't like drawing female characters...)

Well, I can say as fact, I know of at least one Rick Hershey female warrior that will be in ITL... because it's my gf :) And based upon the prelim art, she looks great.

Shostak · 09-29-2018, 11:03 AM

Folks, I did not intend to start an argument. The OP asked for impressions of ITL and I gave mine based on my reading so far.

Games are about enjoyment, and my post was about making ITL fun for more players. If reading "people", "they", and "their" instead of "men", "he", or "his" when the text does not specifically refer to a male is unlikely to detract from many players' enjoyment but adds pleasure to the experience for approximately half of the human population, then there is every reason to pay a little attention to it in a consistent way. I am glad that there is some effort toward that in ITL, but I'd like to see more consistency, preferably with language long in standard use.

Since I opened this can of worms, perhaps you all will allow me to put the lid back on with my suggesting that we move on to other impressions of ITL.

larsdangly · 09-29-2018, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bestial Warlust

As a complete newbie the ITL I find the read interesting so far. I was unaware of this game until a few years earlier and had been intrigued to see what it was like. While not a fan of the GURPS system I did like the supplements for use in other games and was interested in seeing what the designer of GURPS had come up with in the early days.

I'm glad I backed the KS and I hope to run a trial session to see how it plays out and what my players think of the overall system.

The GURPS supplements are excellent resources for TFT. I've long used GURPS Conan as a supplement for a TFT Conan campaign, and the various historical GURPS supplements are central resources for my Renaissance era quasi-historical Earth campaigns

larsdangly · 09-29-2018, 11:52 AM

I'm really loving some of the specific changes to the way some of the talents work. For example, a Master Mechanician in a party can how act as a sort of squad ordinance specialist, setting up nasty traps wherever the party makes camp; the same character would make a great gunpowder weapon expert.

JLV · 09-29-2018, 12:07 PM

I just want to give a big thumb's up to Rick Hershey's art. Throughout it is consistent, excellent, and avoids cartoonishness to provide a glimpse of what a fantasy world might *really* look like. If SJG couldn't get Pat Hidy back, they did a great job in choosing Rick to replace him (at least partially). And Liz, of course, is always good.

I also want to give about +1000 to Madhopper50. I couldn't agree more.

09-28-2018, 08:49 PM	#11
Shostak Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: New England	Re: Impressions of ITL I've not gotten too far into ITL, but I like it so far. My one preliminary critique is that while the writing style can considered correct with regard to gender, such as using "he" as a default for a gender-neutral pronoun, it now sounds a little fusty. More often these days (actually it goes back at least a couple hundred years), "they" and "their" are being used. I bring this up mostly because of the growing number of girls and women now active in the RPG community. Consider the difference of impression created by a simple change of "men" to "people" in the sentence "The world is filled with many different beasts and men ..." Substituting "people" for "men" probably doesn't change the intended meaning of the sentence, and it sounds much more inclusive. Its odd, because I learned to compose using the masculine for gender-neutral, and every time I read and find it not used, it sets off alarms deeply planted by drill-sergeant nuns. But now, every time I do see it used, that also sets off alarms! Anyway, to anyone planning on writing TFT material under the SJG license, or to SJ himself if he is open to style editing before printing, please at least consider adopting this style. It might just help attract and retain an important portion of the gaming community.

09-29-2018, 10:05 AM	#14
larsdangly Join Date: Dec 2017	Re: Impressions of ITL Balanced use of gender is expected in almost every context in modern writing. The author understands that - that is why some of the new talent entries and a few other spots use 'she'. If I were in charge of this, I would have done the same thing, but finished the thought by presenting an actually balanced mix of pronouns and so forth.

09-29-2018, 10:33 AM	#15
Bestial Warlust Join Date: Jul 2018	Re: Impressions of ITL As a complete newbie the ITL I find the read interesting so far. I was unaware of this game until a few years earlier and had been intrigued to see what it was like. While not a fan of the GURPS system I did like the supplements for use in other games and was interested in seeing what the designer of GURPS had come up with in the early days. I'm glad I backed the KS and I hope to run a trial session to see how it plays out and what my players think of the overall system.

09-29-2018, 11:03 AM	#17
Shostak Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: New England	Re: Impressions of ITL Folks, I did not intend to start an argument. The OP asked for impressions of ITL and I gave mine based on my reading so far. Games are about enjoyment, and my post was about making ITL fun for more players. If reading "people", "they", and "their" instead of "men", "he", or "his" when the text does not specifically refer to a male is unlikely to detract from many players' enjoyment but adds pleasure to the experience for approximately half of the human population, then there is every reason to pay a little attention to it in a consistent way. I am glad that there is some effort toward that in ITL, but I'd like to see more consistency, preferably with language long in standard use. Since I opened this can of worms, perhaps you all will allow me to put the lid back on with my suggesting that we move on to other impressions of ITL.

09-29-2018, 11:52 AM	#19
larsdangly Join Date: Dec 2017	Re: Impressions of ITL I'm really loving some of the specific changes to the way some of the talents work. For example, a Master Mechanician in a party can how act as a sort of squad ordinance specialist, setting up nasty traps wherever the party makes camp; the same character would make a great gunpowder weapon expert.

09-29-2018, 12:07 PM	#20
JLV Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Arizona	Re: Impressions of ITL I just want to give a big thumb's up to Rick Hershey's art. Throughout it is consistent, excellent, and avoids cartoonishness to provide a glimpse of what a fantasy world might really look like. If SJG couldn't get Pat Hidy back, they did a great job in choosing Rick to replace him (at least partially). And Liz, of course, is always good. I also want to give about +1000 to Madhopper50. I couldn't agree more.