Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-10-2018, 02:00 PM   #91
evileeyore
Banned
 
evileeyore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 100 hurricane swamp
Default Re: The Problem With Magic

Quote:
Originally Posted by scc View Post
For those who don't believe the thing about lots of skills, Kromm made a post about skills every character should have, it's repeated on page 24 of How to Be a GURPS GM which lists 10 areas where he feels characters and parties need to be able to cover and how each character should have at least some competence in each. That's 10 points on skills, minimum and an easy 20 at least.
Yes, but in my case that's not why those skills are on the Sage I posted above. those skills are there because 1 point, even at skill level 9, was far superior to having to roll them at default.



Quote:
Originally Posted by kirbwarrior View Post
That seems to make another issue; Wizard then dominate the area of supernatural effects and thus a ton of capability. Assuming enchanted gear doesn't exist or is very hard to come by, the various other archetypes don't have any supernatural effects to rely or call upon; A warrior can't change damage types for the situation easily (no burning or corrosion damage), a rogue can't fly, turn ghost, or teleport, a scout is entirely substituted with a similar amount of spells they would get in skills, the sage is also substituted with magic (to be fair, if that's the intent that a sagely character is also a wizard, I accept), etc.
Sorry, I missed this earlier.

That's a massive assumption and immediately calls to suspect. In such a game world the GM is deciding that Wizards reign supreme and thus why wouldn't every PC want to be a Jedi Wizard?
evileeyore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2018, 02:02 PM   #92
evileeyore
Banned
 
evileeyore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 100 hurricane swamp
Default Re: The Problem With Magic

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
Yes it's a problem. An easily fixed problem. Should have been fixed for fourth edition but my house rule basing the discount on number of points in the individual spell handles it nicely.
While I like your houserule, I've been trying to balance it with using Magery as well as points in spell (mostly for DF Wizards).
evileeyore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2018, 02:25 PM   #93
maximara
On Notice
 
maximara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Sumter, SC
Default Re: The Problem With Magic

Quote:
Originally Posted by scc View Post
For those who don't believe the thing about lots of skills, Kromm made a post about skills every character should have, it's repeated on page 24 of How to Be a GURPS GM which lists 10 areas where he feels characters and parties need to be able to cover and how each character should have at least some competence in each. That's 10 points on skills, minimum and an easy 20 at least.
Some, though not all, of the tips from "History of a game that failed" (Dragon #99 July 1985) also apply.

"Do not allow a character to become more powerful than a chugging locomotive" In GURPS this translates in keep the stats and skill levels sane. Find ways to make sure the game doesn't encourage sending attributes or skills into orbit.

"Be reasonable in awarding experience points" This is less an issue in GURPS then in D&D but if the number of skills starts going north of 15 the GM should be asking why rather then the knee jerk reaction of cutting back on later CP awards. Unless the player is trying to be a Jack of all trades odds are it is due to a 'if the party has had skill x things would have been so much easier' mentality.


"Beware the many-headed hydra." One player with multiple characters...who are all active in the same session. Thankfully this is less of an issue in GURPS but it is something to watch for.

"Avoid an adversary relationship with your players." I hope this needs no explaining.
maximara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2018, 02:29 PM   #94
David Johnston2
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: The Problem With Magic

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
While I like your houserule, I've been trying to balance it with using Magery as well as points in spell (mostly for DF Wizards).
Considered that. Decided not to bother. Magery as I see it is the brute force you have to bring to bear. Skill is the finesse.
David Johnston2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2018, 02:37 PM   #95
SilvercatMoonpaw
 
SilvercatMoonpaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Default Re: The Problem With Magic

Quote:
Originally Posted by maximara View Post
"Beware the many-headed hydra." One player with multiple characters...who are all active in the same session. Thankfully this is less of an issue in GURPS but it is something to watch for.
Though beware of dismissing it out of hand: there will likely always be someone who can pull off what you may have heard of as a horror story. I know because I've been that person.

(Though I have to caveat that this was in PbP, where taking several minutes to decide what all your characters do and RP is a drop in the bucket.)
SilvercatMoonpaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2018, 03:10 PM   #96
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: The Problem With Magic

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
I just made a Character with 112 skills. Let's not pretend that "between 4 and 10 skills" on a Character are the average. That's not even enough to get someone to the dungeon, let alone to survive once they got there.
Between 4 and 10 skills appears to be a roughly accurate description of the number of primary skills of a starting DF character. All of those have secondary or background skills as well, most likely doubling to tripling that count.
__________________
I don't know any 3e, so there is no chance that I am talking about 3e rules by accident.
Ulzgoroth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2018, 03:36 PM   #97
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: The Problem With Magic

Yeah, I really have to wonder about having more than 50 skills (or having more than 100 points in skills). Without any game mechanics to reward experience or training, it is always more affordable to raise DX or IQ than to raise five related skills from 4 points to 8 points, to raise ten related skills from 2 points to 4 points, or to raise twenty related skills from 1 point to 2 points. Even if you have 50 skills at 1 point, it makes much more sense to purchase DX or IQ than to improve them any further (which is why I advocate giving mechanical bonuses for points invested in individual skills and individual techniques).

At 100 points, a character probably possesses two skills at 20 points each, ten skills at 4 points each, and twenty skills at 1 point each. Since raising DX or IQ will likely benefit a minimum of one 20 point skill, five 4 point skills, and ten 1 point skills, the character gains 34 points of skill gains for 20 points of attribute purchases (meaning that they can spending the 14 points they saved on more skills, getting even more out of their attribute purchase, other attributes, or advantages). As a character, I would much rather spend 34 points on +1 HT, +1 DX, and four new skills at one point than to spend 34 points improving one skill from 20 points to 24 points, five skills from 4 points to 8 points, and ten skills from 1 point to 2 points because it is just more efficient.
AlexanderHowl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2018, 03:52 PM   #98
evileeyore
Banned
 
evileeyore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 100 hurricane swamp
Default Re: The Problem With Magic

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
Considered that. Decided not to bother. Magery as I see it is the brute force you have to bring to bear. Skill is the finesse.
Agreed. But I'm not sure doing this would allow a DF Wizard to properly throw down in the manner a DF Wizard sometimes needs to.

It might though. It's worth giving it a try should I put together a DF game.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Between 4 and 10 skills appears to be a roughly accurate description of the number of primary skills of a starting DF character. All of those have secondary or background skills as well, most likely doubling to tripling that count.
Sure and that distinction has been made since the initial claim I responded to.

At that moment the OP wasn't making that distinction (and I'm not sure he even meant it then) and I don't make that distinction when making Characters (unless I'm using a template, which I abhor doing and did not do for the above posted Sage).

Sure I'll have 'primary' skills and 'secondary' and 'background' skills... but my definition for 'background' does not match up with the writers of these templates. (At least as far as I can tell)
evileeyore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2018, 04:05 PM   #99
OldSam
 
OldSam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Göttingen, Germany
Default Re: The Problem With Magic

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
... As a character, I would much rather spend 34 points on +1 HT, +1 DX, and four new skills at one point than to spend 34 points improving one skill from 20 points to 24 points, five skills from 4 points to 8 points, and ten skills from 1 point to 2 points because it is just more efficient.
Actually I always encourage my players to use 'point shifting' (skill points->attributes) to avoid that issue. In the game they can increase their skills (a little bit) immediately after a session without efficiency losses in the long term. Overall I find that logical, too: When I am practicing a lot of different sports for instance I'll automatically increase my general DX after a while etc. ...

Last edited by OldSam; 07-10-2018 at 04:15 PM.
OldSam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2018, 04:19 PM   #100
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: The Problem With Magic

I also encourage point shifting, though I have also introduced game mechanics to reward purchasing skills
AlexanderHowl is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
lend vitality

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:48 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.