Wait maneuver - differences from 3rd Edition

[condor]

I created this post to gather all the differences between the old Step and Wait (3rd. ed.) and the new one (4th).

To begin with, I have a specific doubt regarding the new Wait maneuver.

In Basic Set, p. 366, it is said that you must "Do nothing" when performing Wait, which allows no movement. But in p. 385, in the box Wait Maneuver Strategy it is suggested that a character could have moved before performing the triggered action ("If you did not move at all on your turn, you may take a step").

In 3rd. ed. you could step. It allowed, e.g., Combatant A to close in his foe B against a three-yeard wide dead-end alley, inching forward while aware of any escaping attempt.

If the A must stay still while waiting, how is it that A encroaches B while preventing him from running in a dead-end alley situation?

[Ulzgoroth]

The Basic Set clearly does not allow you to move when declaring a Wait. (Though you could as part of the action when your Wait triggers.)

GURPS Tactical Shooting implicitly (re?)introduced an option of taking a step and wait. Since it never explicitly did so, it didn't actually lay down rules for doing it...

[condor]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

The Basic Set clearly does not allow you to move when declaring a Wait. (Though you could as part of the action when your Wait triggers.)

GURPS Tactical Shooting implicitly (re?)introduced an option of taking a step and wait. Since it never explicitly did so, it didn't actually lay down rules for doing it...

Yeah, that is the problem.

And in the Errata, there is no hint that it is to be corrected.

[D10]

Rules aside, I have always played and GMed with steping and waiting being allowed and I think it makes the game better.

[condor]

Originally Posted by D10

Rules aside, I have always played and GMed with steping and waiting being allowed and I think it makes the game better.

D10, as GURPS has a lot of rules interactions, I do my best for avoiding house rules. At least to me, they proved tricky in my past experience.

I think that, after some research, the step in the Wait maneuver may not be necessary after all. In the case of the Tactical Shooting example, it seems to solve itself.

You do not enter into combat mode in this case, at least not with whoever is waiting for you. So, the rules say that if you give cautious side steps, you are entitled to a Perception Quick contest with whoever is on the other side of the corner. If he has taken Wait maneuver, he has the upper hand. The disadvantage of a Move and Attack maneuver here is obvious, because you get -2 in the Perception roll and the worse of -2 and the Bulk in the Attack roll.

In the case of closing in a foe, the only solution I see is Evaluating him from, say, five yards, and then approach taking Step and Evaluate (keeping the bonus of +3). If he tries to go around, you Move and Attack, and have an adjusted skill of 9, his back towards you. But this is not enough...

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by marcusgurpsmaster

D10, as GURPS has a lot of rules interactions, I do my best for avoiding house rules. At least to me, they proved tricky in my past experience.

I think that, after some research, the step in the Wait maneuver may not be necessary after all. In the case of the Tactical Shooting example, it seems to solve itself.

You do not enter into combat mode in this case, at least not with whoever is waiting for you. So, the rules say that if you give cautious side steps, you are entitled to a Perception Quick contest with whoever is on the other side of the corner. If he has taken Wait maneuver, he has the upper hand. The disadvantage of a Move and Attack maneuver here is obvious, because you get -2 in the Perception roll and the worse of -2 and the Bulk in the Attack roll.

In the case of closing in a foe, the only solution I see is Evaluating him from, say, five yards, and then approach taking Step and Evaluate (keeping the bonus of +3). If he tries to go around, you Move and Attack, and have an adjusted skill of 9, his back towards you. But this is not enough...

Pie-slicing is specifically phrased in terms of combat maneuvers. It definitely requires a step-and-wait. It'd also be really awkward for it to only be possible to perform a basic tactical evolution if you are not in combat time!


Generally I see no problem with step-and-wait except for the puzzling way it been (not) addressed in published rules.

[condor]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I don't think it's necessary. I find it useful. Really though it mostly will never come up, especially if you don't (as I gather most people don't) use the Tactical Combat rules at all.

I know that you can circumvent it through not using the Tactical System. Indeed, I use it very little.

Originally Posted by D10

Rules aside, I have always played and GMed with steping and waiting being allowed and I think it makes the game better.

D10 said it in the beginning of the post. Grouchy Chris brought Kromm opinion. I agreed.

Originally Posted by Grouchy Chris

Here is what Kromm had to say about it. The gist: RAW does not allow a Step with Wait, but it's entirely reasonable to allow it anyway.

But the post itself started with two very specific problems, in Tactical System :

1) The slicing-the-pie: what maneuver to use?, and

2) Guy A closing in foe B in a three-yard-alley: By raw, if he Waits, and his foe stays put, he cannot walk; if he steps, he spends his maneuver and his foe can Move past him. It is not a minor problem. Basic Set dedicates a third of a page on it, but instead of solving it, makes the thing more confusing.


The conclusions I arrived, within this specific discussion are:

About the "Slicing the Pie" situation:

You could consider the Steps proposed in TS p. 24 as Move maneuvers, restricted by special rules, Attack without a target on a turn by turn basis, or Ready (or keep the gun ready) and step, also on a turn by turn basis. Even Step and Wait. It makes no big difference in TS terms. Ulzgoroth said:

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

it won't give you any ability to react to what you find, because you took a Ready maneuver rather than a Wait.

I disagree. The thing here is that Wait maneuver makes the player fell safer, because he is entitled to interrupt his foe's turn, and because it sounds coherent. But if both guys are paying attention, it ends up in the same either if both took step and wait, Attack, Ready or just steps: initiative will be disputed under special rules. The first to attack, or to react, is the one who wins. If one guy is Moving fast or Moving and Attacking, he has a penalty in this dispute. Only Opportunity Fire has true priority in this case.

In the case of the dead-end alley situation:


1) Using Wait maneuvers with different, alternating clauses. One of them is "if foe B falls within reach, I strike him" and the other "if foe B stays put, I walk". This would generate some suspense, because foe B could try to guess when to run, but as there is no clear definition of time (stays put for how long? a turn?), it is lame - probably not even raw. Besides, it creates a dangerous precedent when thinking about odd Wait clauses.

2) Using Tactical System under special rules, and, in practice, allow Step and Wait only in these situations.

3) Allowing Step and Wait always. As when you take a Step in advance in a Wait maneuver, in most cases, you are in a disadvantageous position because you are committed with a future maneuver, I think this is no big deal.

4) Allowing the player who took a Wait maneuver the possibility of taking a step in the case his triggering condition don't take place, in the end of the turn.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by marcusgurpsmaster

I disagree. The thing here is that Wait maneuver makes the player fell safer, because he is entitled to interrupt his foe's turn, and because it sounds coherent. But if both guys are paying attention, it ends up in the same either if both took step and wait, Attack, Ready or just steps: initiative will be disputed under special rules. The first to attack, or to react, is the one who wins. If one guy is Moving fast or Moving and Attacking, he has a penalty in this dispute. Only Opportunity Fire has true priority in this case.

If you actually use turn order (the slicing the pie rules do not), then after you use your Ready maneuver to step out, your opponent will get to shoot you on their turn before you can act again. That's in addition to shooting you immediately if they had a Wait in effect.

If you use the Slicing the Pie rules as written, you should remember that you're only half-way into combat, and little things like what maneuver you're using and whose turn is whose are ignored, unless they're not. And if you happen to engage in pie-slicing actually using the combat rules (say because you do it in the middle of a larger combat), expect inconsistent results.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by marcusgurpsmaster

1) The slicing-the-pie: what maneuver to use?, and

As written the rules for Turning Corners in Tactical Shooting aren't for situations where you are in combat and choosing maneuvers each turn.

[condor]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

The Basic Set clearly does not allow you to move when declaring a Wait. (Though you could as part of the action when your Wait triggers.)

GURPS Tactical Shooting implicitly (re?)introduced an option of taking a step and wait. Since it never explicitly did so, it didn't actually lay down rules for doing it...

There are hints which makes things more confusing.

1) In GURPS Frequently Asked Questions http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/faq/FAQ4-3.html, Wait is called Step and Wait maneuver.

2) If step is not allowed with wait, than what maneuver is a player to take in order to perform a "Slicing the Pie" (Tactical Shooting, p. 24)? It is a situation in which a man steps around a corner. Does he take a series of Step and Wait, or does he make a series of Step and Attack, giving up the attack each turn a valid target does not present itself?

3) In GURPS Lite, an update from 3rd to 4th edition, where the issue could have been addressed, there is no description of the Wait maneuver.