Dungeon Security

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Anthony

The usual result of this is that, rather than the traditional "room X, then room Y, then room Z" dungeon crawl, you get one big fight and then possible mopup.

The problem with this is it makes every dungeon a non-reusable one shot. Either the PCs die, end of game, or after they win this one fight they're effectively in possession of all the rewards available in this dungeon, including any value to be had to occupying it themselves. What are you going to do for the next game? I guess they could flip sides and defend against the next bunch of murder hoboes, but since this is after all a reward for a single fight winnable by a small group, it's hard to justify that even being a lot of loot or a really worthwhile location to have control of.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by malloyd

The problem with this is it makes every dungeon a non-reusable one shot.

Oh, it fails as dungeon fantasy. Every lair is a one-shot is a fairly normal style for monster-of-the-week games, but those aren't actually dungeons.

[thrash]

Originally Posted by malloyd

The problem with this is it makes every dungeon a non-reusable one shot. Either the PCs die, end of game, or after they win this one fight they're effectively in possession of all the rewards available in this dungeon, including any value to be had to occupying it themselves.

You are making the unwarranted assumption that defeating the Boss means the end of all resistance in the dungeon. If the denizens are smart enough to cooperate, they are also smart enough to retreat and fight another day. It is equally possible that the PCs have to make a fighting withdrawal from the defeated Boss' chamber with whatever high-grade loot they could grab.

Realistically, the denizens could heal their wounded, bury their dead, choose a new Boss, shore up the worst holes in their defenses, and be that much better prepared for the next time. (This is, more or less, the plot arc for Reverse Dungeon.) If they manage to defeat one or more parties of other adventurers before the PCs return, there might even be new loot to be had.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by thrash

You are making the unwarranted assumption that defeating the Boss means the end of all resistance in the dungeon.

No, he was responding to my point about "well, the logical thing for the monsters to do is all get together and dogpile the PCs". For which there are a few outcomes:

1. The PCs are killed or driven off.
2. The PCs break through. The monsters retreat to a different defensible position, which may be quite a distance away; unless they're expecting reinforcements or have some reason to try and stall, they may well quit the complex entirely since there's no reason to expect a new battle to go better than the first.
3. The PCs break through. The monsters are killed or routed.

In either of the latter two cases, there may be leftovers that need to be cleaned up, but unless you're looking at an extremely large complex they're probably not very relevant so yes, you've basically either moved resistance to a new point or eliminated it.

[thrash]

Originally Posted by Anthony

No, he was responding to my point about "well, the logical thing for the monsters to do is all get together and dogpile the PCs".

Ah. But even so, that's not the only reasonable strategy, especially if the denizens are individually much weaker than the PC party. They could, for example, avoid a set piece battle and use their superior knowledge of the dungeon's layout to snipe and ambush the PCs. This was the overall strategy pursued by (inter alia) Tucker's Kobolds, and in the Real World (tm) by the Viet Cong at Cu Chi. This is less likely to result in an all-or-nothing outcome for either side.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by thrash

Ah. But even so, that's not the only reasonable strategy, especially if the denizens are individually much weaker than the PC party. They could, for example, avoid a set piece battle and use their superior knowledge of the dungeon's layout to snipe and ambush the PCs. This was the overall strategy pursued by (inter alia) Tucker's Kobolds, and in the Real World (tm) by the Viet Cong at Cu Chi. This is less likely to result in an all-or-nothing outcome for either side.

DF doesn't really have particularly good weapons available for guerilla combat, and you also want an extremely large complex (far larger than typical dungeon maps) for it to be particularly viable. Going exploring through a vast (and mostly empty) underground city fits decently within the flavor of DF and is probably better suited to the traditional small isolated combats, but isn't the classic dungeon model which only has a few dozen rooms at max.

[thrash]

Originally Posted by Anthony

DF doesn't really have particularly good weapons available for guerilla combat, and you also want an extremely large complex (far larger than typical dungeon maps) for it to be particularly viable.

I submit that any weapon that can work as a trap -- crossbow, spear, flame, acid, deadfall, etc. -- works as well or better with someone to aim or trigger it. You don't need a large complex for this to be viable, but you do need one with multiple parallel routes. If nothing else, this provides justification for hidden rooms, secret doors, moveable walls, and similar traditional features of dungeon architecture.

Going exploring through a vast (and mostly empty) underground city fits decently within the flavor of DF and is probably better suited to the traditional small isolated combats, but isn't the classic dungeon model which only has a few dozen rooms at max.

While I agree with you about the empty city as a model dungeon, I dispute your claim about the size of typical dungeons. The ur-example, from D&D Book 3 (pp. 3-4) had ~6.5 levels, each of which is implied to encompass dozens of rooms. The text mentions Castle Greyhawk as having "over a dozen levels in succession downwards, more than that number branching from these, and not less than two new levels under construction at any given time." Smaller dungeons may be the more common, due to limits on creator time and energy, but they are certainly not the ideal.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by thrash

While I agree with you about the empty city as a model dungeon, I dispute your claim about the size of typical dungeons.

Classic maps were a pretty consistent size, because they were supposed to fit on the inside of the module cover at a 1 square=10' scale; this gave you something like a 500x750 area if it was a single-layer map, and the 10' resolution meant that rooms tended to be gigantic (you could take those maps and just say the squares are 5'... and the rooms would still be reasonable sized). As a result, room count was generally something like 50, which is huge by modern dungeon standards but not much by urban combat standards.

[b-dog]

Maybe there could be a malachite statue of a demon in a dungeon room and if anyone enters the room with a life force it will alert an evil cleric and unless the living beings with souls bow before the malachite statue and place their hands on the base. If this gesture is not done then undead or demon guards will start making rounds to see who is intruding. The cultists know this so they always bow and place their hands on the base. The undead and demon guards have a link with the evil cleric and if they are killed then the evil cleric will know there are intruders and send spies to inform him of who is intruding and give him details of them too.

[b-dog]

Maybe there could be sample security teams written up for boss monsters. It could have a security team leader who is in charge of keeping the boss monster safe and then some active security force when the security leader finds out PCs are in the dungeon. And then there would be wandering monsters that go around checking to see in there are intruders and if possible report back to the security leader. There would be some ambush ideas for the security team once PCs are know to be in the dungeon. Also there would be detection systems from scrying magic items to spirits that sense intruders. Then there would be some traps that can be enhanced by ambushes from the security team. And finally guardians which could be bound demons or other monsters that are ordered to guard treasure or prevent entry into certain areas. This set up would allow the DM pick out a boss monster and then match him with a security team and then the dungeon just needs other encounters here and there of random monsters that live in the dungeon but don’t work for the boss monster.