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Old 06-04-2022, 03:16 AM   #1
Michael Thayne
 
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Default Creating a quick-start guide?

So I ran the first bit of I Smell a Rat for some friends awhile back, and they just used pregens, but I've been thinking it would be nice to have some guidelines for creating characters extremely quickly without quite going all the way to pregens. Sort of like Delvers to Grow, but with even more choices made for the player. For example, you might write up a standard set of advantage choices for each occupational template, with 20 points held back in each case for a racial template. In that case, of course, humans or halflings would have have an extra 20 points to spend, and to keep it as simple as possible the default suggestion could be to spend it on DX or IQ.

There are a few tricky things to worry about here, mostly coming from my reluctance to make assumptions about how quirk points will be spent. For "powers"-based occupations (bard, cleric, druid, holy warrior), making the point math come out right can be tricky. Of course spare points can be thrown at Resistant to Disease, Resist Evil, etc., but even then I'm not super-happy with the available options for druids. There's also the problem of loadouts, though that might be mitigated by letting players take key pieces of gear with a -0.6 CF for Cheap.

Alternatively, I could tell people they must take five quirks, and come prepared with tables of random quirks (or quirk prompts) for those who tend to get character-builer's block around such things.

Thoughts? I'm tempted to ask if anyone has done something like this before, but I strongly suspect that the closest anyone's gotten is Delvers to Grow.
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Old 06-04-2022, 09:19 AM   #2
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Default Re: Creating a quick-start guide?

I like anything that gets people to the table fast. I'm not sure, however, that there's enough of a gap between Delvers to Grow and pregens. I usually allow people to customize their pregens anyway. New name? Gender? Quirks? No questions asked. If you want to swap out a disad or skill, check with me and I'll likely approve it.

My experience with Delvers to Grow has been that it allows for very fast character generation. I'll be giving it a thorough stress test this week at the RPG camp I'm running for middle-schoolers. I'll have a dozen or more kids using Delvers to generate characters. They won't have computers, so this will be old-school: pencils and character sheets (no GCS or GCA).

Last year when we ran the camp, we used the full templates from Adventurers. Everyone ended up with characters, but it took a long time. This was partly due to the fact that we only had one DFRPG box per table. This time, every participant gets their own brand new box, so looking things up will go more quickly. I'll report back to let folks know how it goes. (We have a second camp later this month where we can iron out the wrinkles and try again.)
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Old 06-04-2022, 10:13 AM   #3
Michael Thayne
 
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Default Re: Creating a quick-start guide?

While Delvers to Grow is in many ways a huge improvement over the more open-ended templates in the boxed set, I see a few issues with it:
  • While the core templates and basic/advanced modules are pretty straightforward, some of the upgrade modules are still handing the player a bucket of points and leaving the player on their own figuring out how to spend them.
  • You run into a similar problem trying to build non-humans (other than halflings). The easiest thing is to have the racial template replace an upgrade module but then you've got 5 leftover points to distribute.
  • I kind of want to run I Smell a Rat rather than Crypt of Krysuvik, and I worry even 187-point delvers built with DtG would struggle with the former.
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Old 06-04-2022, 11:30 AM   #4
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Default Re: Creating a quick-start guide?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Thayne View Post
While Delvers to Grow is in many ways a huge improvement over the more open-ended templates in the boxed set, I see a few issues with it:
  • While the core templates and basic/advanced modules are pretty straightforward, some of the upgrade modules are still handing the player a bucket of points and leaving the player on their own figuring out how to spend them.
Of the 57 upgrade modules presented, 12 involve what I might call "focused choice," such as "spend 14 points among the weapon skills you already have/on your template." Or "spend five points among [a short list of N skills]." That's not asking for a lot.

There are two more that either allow a choice between something 100% circumscribed (that is, no choices at all), or an option for spending a bucket of points: The Holy Warrior ability Blessed Warrior is the archetype here. You get to either pick a set of entirely useful abilities, or spend 25 points freely.

Finally, there are three that are purely open, all of which are "empowered" professions. Martial Artist (Chi Mastery), Broad Tradition (Bard), and Empowered Druid/Cleric.

So 90% of the upgrades are either entirely prescribed or are really focused point allocation.

Quote:
[*] You run into a similar problem trying to build non-humans (other than halflings). The easiest thing is to have the racial template replace an upgrade module but then you've got 5 leftover points to distribute.
The book gives specific guidance on how to do this, from "replace one or more upgrades" to "spend freely," allowing for the system mastery of the participants to guide choices.

I don't think many would consider a 5-point slush fund onerous by any stretch (+1 to a skill with 4 points or more, +1 to a skill with 1 point, or acquire a new skill, boom, done)

Quote:
[*] I kind of want to run I Smell a Rat rather than Crypt of Krysuvik, and I worry even 187-point delvers built with DtG would struggle with the former.[/LIST]
I Smell A Rat is designed for 250-point delvers, yes. So you take the 187-point folks, add two upgrade packages and distribute a 12-point slush fund (+1 to three things you're already good at, including the same thing three times, done).

I recently did some worked examples taking DtGr as far as I could, and all of those done so far topped out well over 500 points, so making a 250 point delver by choosing four upgrade packages still gets you to the table in less than 15 minutes. For FnordCon 5, I made 30 characters in five hours, an average of 10 minutes each.
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Old 06-04-2022, 12:05 PM   #5
Michael Thayne
 
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Default Re: Creating a quick-start guide?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
Of the 57 upgrade modules presented, 12 involve what I might call "focused choice," such as "spend 14 points among the weapon skills you already have/on your template." Or "spend five points among [a short list of N skills]." That's not asking for a lot.

There are two more that either allow a choice between something 100% circumscribed (that is, no choices at all), or an option for spending a bucket of points: The Holy Warrior ability Blessed Warrior is the archetype here. You get to either pick a set of entirely useful abilities, or spend 25 points freely.

Finally, there are three that are purely open, all of which are "empowered" professions. Martial Artist (Chi Mastery), Broad Tradition (Bard), and Empowered Druid/Cleric.

So 90% of the upgrades are either entirely prescribed or are really focused point allocation.
What counts as "asking for a lot" really depends on context. Consider the case of trying to run a one-shot at your local game shop where you might get someone showing up 15 minutes early hoping to create a character from scratch in those 15 minutes—and 15 minutes is only if you're lucky.

Also, the "empowered" upgrades are the ones I'm most worried about, since the advantage choices aren't priced in nice increments of 5 points. Honestly I if a player asked me for advice on what to do with those modules I might struggle to come up with good advice on the spot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
The book gives specific guidance on how to do this, from "replace one or more upgrades" to "spend freely," allowing for the system mastery of the participants to guide choices.

I don't think many would consider a 5-point slush fund onerous by any stretch (+1 to a skill with 4 points or more, +1 to a skill with 1 point, or acquire a new skill, boom, done)
Sure, and I've thought about offering more specific advice, like spending the points on skills boosted by the racial talent (though that doesn't work for half-ogres or half-orcs). Still, it's one more damn thing to think about.

I want to be very clear that I think DtG was a huge step in the right direction, but it's still more complicated than what many casual gamers are used to. Here's the sort of thing I'm thinking of in terms of standardized choices:

Barbarian: ST +2 [20].
Bard: Charisma +1 [5]; Song of Command [35].
Resistant to Disease: Resistant to Disease 1 [1]; Turning [24].
Druid: Animal Empathy; Plant Empathy [5]; Spirit Empathy [10].
Holy Warrior: Detect Evil [18]; Heroic Feats 1 [9]; Resist Evil 3 [3].
Knight: ST +1 [10]; Striking ST +2 [10]; Weapon Master (Primary melee weapon) [20].
Martial Artist: Uninterrupted Flurry [20].
Scout: Weapon Master (Bow) [20].
Swashbuckler: Basic Move +1 [5]; Extra Attack 1 [25]; Striking ST 2 [10].
Thief: Expert Backstabbing 5 [10].
Wizard: Magery +1 [10].

I'd then do something similar for skills and loadouts.
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Last edited by Michael Thayne; 06-05-2022 at 09:57 AM.
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Old 06-04-2022, 02:31 PM   #6
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Default Re: Creating a quick-start guide?

I ran a group at a FLGS from April 2021 to Jan 2022 (when I moved). It started as a playtest for Delvers To Grow.

The first night we had 5 people show up, one of which had played GURPS, one of which had played 5e and 3 of which hadn't played any RPGs. I had 3 (explicitly authorized) preprint copies of DtGr. We got 4 characters made in 1 hour. (One of the never played people was about 9 and didn't actually want to play. He spent the night running and looking at the games and books in the store.) We then started a scenario designed to be a challenge and introduce the system. I had only planned to run that night, but got asked by three people (2 players and the store employee) to run the following week.

I ended up running them through I Smell A Rat (because that is what I had) and significantly lowering the power/threat level of the monsters. For example, I dropped the Peshkali's skill to 12 and lowered the ST by 4 or 5. I also did NOT call for a roll to determine its weakness. That was a bit of a rough fight for them. By the time they finished the adventure they were at about 190 points.

Throughout that time, I had new players show up roughly every 2-3 weeks. In most cases they made their own characters and only took about 15 minutes to do so. In some cases they chose to pick a pre-gen.

I then used some of the festival days ideas that appear in a number of books set in Douglas Cole's Nordlond setting. The group had a LOT of fun with that. I then ran Crypt. I ended up adjusting a few things to make the challenge better to the party.

I will note, that in NO case did I just hand DtGr to a player and expect them to make choices. That actually takes having read the book previously. It is also helped tremendously by having some system mastery. Instead I would present each player with one choice at a time. "Do you want to be human, or something else? Strong, Fast or Caster? Which type of [Strong|Fast|Caster]?" Okay, write this stuff down. Which disad packages? The names in bold are pretty self explanatory, but read what is below that if the bold sounds like something you want. We can adjust later if you want. What upgrade package? What weapon? Is there any equipment you want?" With three books I can go through this with multiple people at a time. (Yes, I bought three physical copies.) Overall, my average time to having a character is 15 minutes. It IS a little slower if I'm helping multiple at a time. It is also slower if the player has reading problems. (I have read entries out loud in some cases.)

Does the product do what it is designed to do? Yes! Is it a perfect fit for your group/table? It doesn't sound like it. However, it doesn't sound like anything that allows spending points in less than 5 or 25 point, completely defined chunks will. There are a couple of approaches you can take to addressing this:
  1. Completely build your own quick start. This will take some work. Depending on you, this could be a LOT of work or just a moderate amount
  2. Use Delvers To Grow as a starting point. Eliminate certain options if they cause pain for your players. Build your own modules (upgrade, advanced or otherwise) that fit what you want to have at your table.
Either of these should work find. I just thing the second saves YOU effort. It also supports creators that are actively trying to support the game.
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Old 06-05-2022, 04:49 AM   #7
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Default Re: Creating a quick-start guide?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Thayne View Post
Sure, and I've thought about offering more specific advice, like spending the points on skills boosted by the racial talent (though that doesn't work for half-ogres or half-orcs). Still, it's one more damn thing to think about.

I want to be very clear that I think DtG was a huge step in the right direction, but it's still more complicated than what many casual gamers are used to. Here's the sort of thing I'm thinking of in terms of standardized choices:

Barbarian: ST +2 [20].
Bard: Charisma +1 [5]; Song of Command [35].
Resistant to Disease: Resistant to Disease 1 [1]; Turning [24].
Druid: Animal Empathy; Plant Empathy [5]; Spirit Empathy [10].
Holy Warrior: Detect Evil [18]; Heroic Feats 1 [9]; Resist Evil 3 [3].
Knight: ST +1 [10]; Striking ST +2 [10]; Weapon Master (Primary melee weapon) [20].
Martial Artist: Uninterrupted Flurry [20].
Scout Weapon Master (Bow) [20].
Swashbuckler: Basic Move +1 [5]; Extra Attack 1 [25]; Striking ST 2 [10].
Thief: Expert Backstabbing 5 [10].
Wizard: Magery +1 [10].

I'd then do something similar for skills and loadouts.
Throw something together and post the document on the Discord and I'll look at it and say what I think. Maybe Douglas can take a look as well (although I cannot make promises for him).
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Old 06-06-2022, 08:29 AM   #8
Michael Thayne
 
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Default Re: Creating a quick-start guide?

Looking at the loadouts on the official pregens, somewhat to my surprise there are very few truly universal items—the only truly universal ones I think are clothing, personal basics, and at least $10 in coins. All have some sort of gear for carrying other gear, though this is highly variable—pouch is most common, followed by backpacks, but Fransisco uses a sack and Puddin' relies exclusively on delver's webbing. None have any camping gear more serious than a backpack/pouch, canteen/wineskin, personal basics, and rations.

I also notice that the simplest way to handle armor choice is probably just to recommend a full suit of cloth or leather armor, which costs $150 if light or $450 if heavy. Many players may be surprised at not having metal armor starting out but I can point out that historically only wealthy individuals (or well-funded militaries) could afford metal armor.
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Old 06-06-2022, 11:20 AM   #9
Michael Thayne
 
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Default Re: Creating a quick-start guide?

Thinking more about loadouts, one thing that seems especially worthwhile is cases where an occupation has a required skill (or in rare cases other trait) that isn't useful without the necessary equipment. Here's my list, would be happy to know if I've missed anything. I deliberately left off the backpack alchemy lab because it's so expensive and the pregen wizards don't have it:
Barbarian
Fishhooks and line. $50, 0.1 lb.
Navigation requires at least a miniature sundial ($40, 1 lb.). A proper compass is only slightly more expensive, but significantly heavier ($50, 5 lbs.)

Bard
Need a musical instrument, but a simple flute or similar (the pregen bard uses a tin whistle) only costs $40 and weighs 1 lb.

Cleric
Healer’s kit. $200, 10 lbs.
Also, clerics with Turning (per my previously-posted recommendations) need a holy symbol ($50, 1 lb.).

Druid
Healer’s kit. $200, 10 lbs.

Holy Warrior
Healer’s kit. $200, 10 lbs.
Also, holy warriors with Turning need a holy symbol ($50, 1 lb.), though they likely won't have that ability if they're setting aside 20 points for a racial template.

Scout
Navigation requires at least a miniature sundial ($40, 1 lb.). A proper compass is only slightly more expensive, but significantly heavier ($50, 5 lbs.)

Thief
Basic lockpicks cost $50 and weigh 0.1 lbs., but many thieves will want good-quality ones for the +1 to skill ($250, 0.5 lbs.).
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