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Old 01-13-2011, 06:50 AM   #21
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Default Re: Is there a reason why there is no table for submachine guns in GURPS Lite 4e?

4e Lite is a bit less generic than 3e Lite. 4e Lite doesn't have any magic rules (although one could argue the 3eL rules are so minimal they aren't of much use) and 4eL devotes space to the World Jumper advantage which is of extremely limited value outside of, oh, an Infinite Worlds campaign).

The point of all this is that something always has to be left out and something included of questionable value.
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Old 01-13-2011, 06:51 AM   #22
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Default Re: Is there a reason why there is no table for submachine guns in GURPS Lite 4e?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
I expect to be able to run a campaign in any setting,
I intended to buy some of the actual books like GURPS Basic Set, but not before actually running a test campaign.

It's like I'm trying to test-drive a new car with the intention of buying it (or related models), except that it's been stripped down to the bare basics and I only just find this out when I climb into the driver seat. All of the cool features and doo-hickeys advertised are there, they just don't actually work because someone went to the trouble of disabling them but still left them there.

So, basically, why are they still there?
You make a valid point but it's not that easy... For instance a car is something you can try out and _then_ decide if you buy/take it. If you get a complete document for "trying it out", you already have all the information and don't need to buy something else.

But I would definitely agree with you that there is some content in Lite that could be better left out, because it's not of much use for Lite-only players, anyway.
At least they should have made clear in the introduction, that some things are just samples of what could be, rather than being useful in an actual Lite-Game. IMHO it's bad style that they did not make that clear in the beginning, though of course it's free and overall still a good product. Also they should have pointed out, that it's a more abstract easy-version of the game, where indeed you could treat a SMG (more or less) just like a Rifle, letting out all details.

Maybe in a little updated version of Lite, they could extend the introduction with respect to that.

Last edited by OldSam; 01-13-2011 at 09:26 AM.
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Old 01-13-2011, 06:52 AM   #23
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Default Re: Is there a reason why there is no table for submachine guns in GURPS Lite 4e?

As mentioned, Lite is mostly for players. The way it's set up, it can be used as the only resource for a GM as well, but this will be a very basic and limited game, like a demo. Which is exactly what you're running in to. Lite is excellent for letting players have enough rules to join your game, without everyone needing to buy expensive books. To get all of the functionality out the 500 page rules, *someone* has to buy them. Those computer games have the full program, you just can't use all the stuff or go to all the places without the secret code, and that costs money. It's a decent strategy to get sales, and it also helps increase the community feeling of the game. I tend to think it's a great idea, even if it is a quite limited idea with limited functionality, its better than any other game company does (except now, some of them are copycating).

I'm sorry if you feel you need more for free. There's all sorts of ways to get free things, this one happens to be legal. If you really want to play in a GURPS game before you invest, perhaps a nice PbP game would be the ticket? There's several around, and most (if not all) of them would accept someone with just the Lite rules.
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Old 01-13-2011, 08:49 AM   #24
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Default Re: Is there a reason why there is no table for submachine guns in GURPS Lite 4e?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
After what all of the things you just mentioned, that actually sounds pretty close to impossible.
You can run a game with it, just not any game with it.
Then what game am I supposed to run with it?

Or do I have to buy one of the books first, to find out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Quote:
The shotgun too? Oh, man.
Again, no rules for Rapid Fire. The Shotgun's RoF statistic is basically meaningless in Lite.
So why is it still there?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
If GURPS Lite Fourth Edition didn't make mention of skills without actually elaborating on rules of how to use them, then we wouldn't have this problem.
One thing Lite is useful for is as a quick reference for players who don't own the Basic Set, but are playing in a full GURPS game.
I couldn't agree more, sir_pudding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mailanka View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
I expect to be able to run a campaign in any setting, time period and genre.
With a free product?
Well, GURPS does stand for "Generic Universal RolePlaying System", does it not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mailanka View Post
Quote:
I am aware of that and always have been.
I don't think you are, given the previous statement.
Oh, really?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mailanka View Post
Of course you can.
If it is possible to see GURPS Lite in action without the (missing) rules and mechanics of how to mediate and determine the consequences of situations, then please do explain how.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mailanka View Post
GURPS Lite wouldn't be Lite if it contained every GURPS rule for you to "sample."
Again, I am aware of that. And why is sample in quotation marks?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mailanka View Post
But that doesn't mean you can't run a decent game with it. _A_ decent game, not _any_ decent game, as Sir Pudding points out.
So, doesn't that mean GURPS Lite Fourth Edition should be called RPS Lite Fourth Edition instead?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mailanka View Post
It's more like playing a demo of a computer game.
Except that you have to resort to third-party content and fan sources to make parts of the game work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lachimba View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
I
I intended to buy some of the actual books like GURPS Basic Set, but not before actually running a test campaign.
A test campaign?

I think running a test adventure (or playing in a test campaign) is a more modest goal and I think you could manage that.
But information on how to deal with situations concerning certain content is missing and, to me, that makes them junk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupo View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
After what all of the things you just mentioned, that actually sounds pretty close to impossible.
I think it's very far-fetched to say that "running an adventure with GURPS Lite is impossible" just because there are no rules for Rapid fire.
You could fudge it, you know... saying that with a successful hit in full auto, you get hit by 1d6 bullets, or something...
I don't like fudging numbers, especially considering that I have a limited understanding of GURPS (and much less of what goes on behind the curtain). I resort to third-party sources and fan projects, and find the most common denominators.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupo View Post
It's quite obvious that a 32-page free booklet will be incomplete if compared to a 500 page book.
What irritates me is that they didn't take out the content that had no resources to back it up.

How am I supposed to tell a player that they shouldn't take the Missile Weapon (Submachine Gun) skill because the game doesn't provide weapon stats for a submachine gun?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos View Post
I don't have a problem with that, if you want to be specific, don't take the lite version, simple.

If a player wanted a smg and I had only GURPS lite, I would say, take a rifle(for example), and use as if it was one, since a Lite game is made to be simple.
The problem I have with GURPS Lite Fourth Edition is that it still specifically makes mention to the submachine gun skill, even though the simplified system has made it impossible to stat any.

Quote:
Originally Posted by copeab View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos View Post
If a player wanted a smg and I had only GURPS lite, I would say, take a rifle(for example), and use as if it was one, since a Lite game is made to be simple.
One couldd use the automatic weapon and shotgun rules from 3e Lite for WWII, if you really wanted rules and didn't want to buy a nook. Sure, they aren't compatible with 4e but they're better than nothing.
I've been using the following (unofficial) resources:

The GURPS Fallout Conversion 3.0
http://www.scribd.com/doc/14646941/G...-Conversion-30

RPGnet Wiki: GURPS Weapons
http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/GURPS_Weapons

EDIT: This post is long enough. I will continue replying in a new one.

Last edited by Frosty; 01-13-2011 at 08:53 AM.
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Old 01-13-2011, 09:01 AM   #25
Mailanka
 
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Default Re: Is there a reason why there is no table for submachine guns in GURPS Lite 4e?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
But information on how to deal with situations concerning certain content is missing and, to me, that makes them junk.
Then I'm afraid GURPS Lite is not the product for you.
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Old 01-13-2011, 10:33 AM   #26
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Default Re: Is there a reason why there is no table for submachine guns in GURPS Lite 4e?

Quote:
Originally Posted by copeab View Post
4e Lite is a bit less generic than 3e Lite. 4e Lite doesn't have any magic rules (although one could argue the 3eL rules are so minimal they aren't of much use)
Yeah, I'm not sure what you could really do about that. I suppose you could include the rules for Wildcards and the Magic! skill, or something equally broad.
Quote:
and 4eL devotes space to the World Jumper advantage which is of extremely limited value outside of, oh, an Infinite Worlds campaign).
Yeah, I really don't understand what Jumper is doing in there. It's hardly useful in most games. If I was to re-compile Lite, I'd try to focus it on being able to handle rules light games in a few less crunchy genres (Low Fantasy, Tea Cozies, Science Mystery).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
Then what game am I supposed to run with it?
Seriously? How many genres absolutely need SMGs? WWII or early Cold War Spec Ops? Don't run uber-detailed gun-bunny games with GURPS Lite. You can still run lots and lots of games, basically anything that doesn't require modern milspec hardware or supernatural powers. Historical Low Fantasy, Police Procedurals, Tea Cozies, Wilderness Survival, most Horror, most (non-mil, not Space Opera) SF.

Quote:
So why is it still there?
No idea, I guess they didn't consider it errata. You can always fudge something. It's no worse than a lot of rules light free systems in that.

Quote:
I couldn't agree more, sir_pudding.
Then what's the issue exactly? If it didn't have sufficient detail in the traits, then it wouldn't be as useful to a player in a "full" GURPS game, would it?

Quote:
If it is possible to see GURPS Lite in action without the (missing) rules and mechanics of how to mediate and determine the consequences of situations, then please do explain how.
Don't run early 20th gun-bunny games. You should try to emulate some Agatha Christie, Arthur Conan Doyle, John London, John Grisham, Issac Asimov, or like 90% of the fiction ever written, that doesn't feature SMGs.

Quote:
Except that you have to resort to third-party content and fan sources to make parts of the game work.
No you don't. You need to buy the full product if you want to use all of its features. This isn't any different from demonstration versions of most things in the world.
Quote:
But information on how to deal with situations concerning certain content is missing and, to me, that makes them junk.
I thought you agreed that that content is useful to GURPS player that doesn't own the Basic Set.

Quote:
I don't like fudging numbers, especially considering that I have a limited understanding of GURPS (and much less of what goes on behind the curtain). I resort to third-party sources and fan projects, and find the most common denominators.
If you are going to run a demonstration game, don't try to break the system. To go back to your car analogy, you wouldn't try to test drive a car on the beach, in the rain, at 180mph, would you? Don't try to run Uber-Psionic-Gun-Bunnies-with-Magic-and-Kung Fu with GURPS Lite. It's a demo, run something simple, that covers the basic mechanics of the system (character creation, skill rolls and damage).

Quote:
What irritates me is that they didn't take out the content that had no resources to back it up.
Again, if they did it would be less useful to somebody who is playing in a game that uses the full rules.

Quote:
How am I supposed to tell a player that they shouldn't take the Missile Weapon (Submachine Gun) skill because the game doesn't provide weapon stats for a submachine gun?
"Why would a Caveman/Edwardian Schoolmarm/Hard-boiled Detective/Xeno-Biologist need a submachine gun, Larry?"

Last edited by sir_pudding; 01-13-2011 at 02:27 PM.
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Old 01-13-2011, 10:42 AM   #27
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Default Re: Is there a reason why there is no table for submachine guns in GURPS Lite 4e?

IMHO for attracting new players GURPS would really benefit from a more "worked-out" exemplary introduction. Lite is more "a short-version of the rules" but not "making it really easy and interesting" at first contact.

I am talking about something like a written demo-game for new players using a specific setting with fluff description, pictures etc. to transmit the feeling of a whole game session/scene using the GURPS-System.

In a short and bad version something in that direction:

GI Joe is running over an old wooden bridge, being chased by a bunch of angry werewolves. An hour ago it has rained and the ground is slippery, so he has to be careful not to fall, though he just wants to get out of this hell as soon as possible. { The GM calls for a Dexterity roll to avoid falling. Joe`s player makes a roll against his DX-Attribute of 12... It's an 11, so he succeeds. } Joe manages to get over the bridge quickly, where he finds his parked Jeep. He jumps in, starts the engine and drives the car on the road through the Forest. A quick glance in the mirror shows him that meanwhile three Werewolves are very close after him, so Joe tries to reach top-speed immediately. About 50 Yards later Joe gets some trouble driving through a difficult curve. { Under the given circumstances at top-speed on a bad road the GM decides that Joe needs to make a driving roll with a penalty of -3 to succeed. Joe has Driving (Automobile) at 13, his Player rolls a 12, not good enough in that case... } He can't handle it, the Jeep gets off the track and he risks losing control over his vehicle. Now Joe has some real problems...

Last edited by OldSam; 01-13-2011 at 10:59 AM.
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Old 01-13-2011, 10:50 AM   #28
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Default Re: Is there a reason why there is no table for submachine guns in GURPS Lite 4e?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
Then what game am I supposed to run with it?
You're not supposed to run anything with it. From the front page of GURPS Lite:
Quote:
Originally Posted by GURPS Lite, p. 1
This is the boiled-down “essence” of
GURPS: all the fundamental rules, but not
the options and embellishments that often
confuse new players. Once you’re comfortable
with these rules, you can pick up the
GURPS Basic Set and jump right into the
action. Experienced Game Masters will, we
hope, find this a valuable tool for
introducing new players to the game.
It's a tool for the GM, who is assumed to either have a greater range of GURPS stuff or be comfortable with improvising and/or coming up with his own material, to get players oriented in the system by showing them the fundamentals of the rules and presenting situations which are likely to arise across genres (no matter what genre, people are likely to fight, be injured and need care, climb things, try to find things which aren't immediately evident, etc.; not every campaign needs rules for magic, automatic weapons, force fields, etc.). It is in no way intended to be complete in itself, nor enough to run a campaign, and it says so on both the e23 page and at the very beginning of the book itself.
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Old 01-13-2011, 02:23 PM   #29
Centisteed
 
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Default Re: Is there a reason why there is no table for submachine guns in GURPS Lite 4e?

Another option could be to integrate your
old system into the existing GURPS Lite
game perhaps. Just pick the weapons
system of whatever RPG game you've
come from & substitute in the range,
to-hit, damage, etc & scale it if you
feel necessary. Even use the polyhedral
dice if they are used in place of regular
dice. That could fill in the holes until
you are ready to use the actual GURPS
system.
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Old 01-13-2011, 02:36 PM   #30
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Default Re: Is there a reason why there is no table for submachine guns in GURPS Lite 4e?

Given that SMGs use pistol cartridges, it's not terribly difficult to extrapolate a generic SMG from the auto pistol. The barrel is a little longer, so give it +1 damage, +1 ACC, and -1 or -2 bulk. Weight, price, and ammo capacity you can just look up on the 'net. Oh, look, that's almost exactly the stats for the SMGs in Basic. The resolution of the system isn't so high that minor differences are really going to matter.

Lack of autofire rules would be more the problem that lack of a line in a table for the hardware. It doesn't help to know that the RoF is 8 if you don't know how that's different from RoF 1.
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