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Old 10-23-2019, 05:46 AM   #11
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: [Basic] Duration of Advantages with Preparation Required limitation

Preperation Required should probably lean more towards one use or one hour. This would make sense for advantages like Regeneration (Regular) with Preparation Required useful, which would be useless if it only lasted one minute.
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Old 10-23-2019, 06:03 AM   #12
WingedKagouti
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Default Re: [Basic] Duration of Advantages with Preparation Required limitation

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Now if you mean, once prepped it lasts until the end of the first combat, that I can get with. Because then they can prep it again if they have time after that combat, but if it takes an hour to prep, I'd probably let it last until unconsciousness, or a set time limit (call it 8 hours or so probably).
My initial thought was first hit, but what I actually posted was meant to count for the entire duration of the first combat encounter (however long that is in each situation).
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Old 10-23-2019, 06:19 AM   #13
Anaraxes
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Duration of Advantages with Preparation Required limitation

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Originally Posted by Sorenant View Post
I was actually asking the latter, how long it lasts once it's been activated.
Ah; my mistake.

In that case, Powers 153 ("Turning Abilities Off and On") would be the RAW answer. To be Always On, an ability has to meet several conditions. I think the important one here is case 2,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Powers p153
The ability doesn’t have discrete “uses” built in or added via Costs Fatigue, Limited Use, Takes Recharge, etc.
Prep Required isn't specifically listed, but I think it falls into the "etc" here, as adding Prep Required builds in one discrete use per prep activity.

The box of defaults on B101 would give the ability a 10-second duration, since it's otherwise unspecified. But I'd take the one-minute duration from Limited Use (B112).

10 seconds is a little spicier for combat abilities, as it gives you the specter of the ability running down if the combat is long, but often one activation is enough for the whole fight. One minute is effective infinity in combat time, or mostly "one action" when you're in narrative time where the actions players declare are much longer and broader.)
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Old 10-23-2019, 07:07 AM   #14
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Duration of Advantages with Preparation Required limitation

The defaults are for the default duration of advantages. Advantages like DR and Regeneration do not have a duration, so the default would not apply. If it was 10 seconds, it would make more sense to give a normally passive advantage Switchable (+10%) and Maximum Duration, 10 seconds, -75%, for a net -65%, rather than Preparation Required (One minute; -20%).

Last edited by AlexanderHowl; 10-23-2019 at 07:11 AM.
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Old 10-23-2019, 01:10 PM   #15
Plane
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Duration of Advantages with Preparation Required limitation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
The box of defaults on B101 would give the ability a 10-second duration, since it's otherwise unspecified. But I'd take the one-minute duration from Limited Use (B112).

10 seconds is a little spicier for combat abilities, as it gives you the specter of the ability running down if the combat is long, but often one activation is enough for the whole fight. One minute is effective infinity in combat time, or mostly "one action" when you're in narrative time where the actions players declare are much longer and broader.)
Re the 1/10/60 triad of options, it seems like it's 1 for attacking (regardless of modifier?), but when you have something like DR with one of Limited Use, Costs Fatigue, Unreliable or Require Will Roll (or some combination of these 4) how would we know the right seconds?
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Old 10-23-2019, 04:57 PM   #16
Anaraxes
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: [Basic] Duration of Advantages with Preparation Required limitation

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
how would we know the right seconds?
I'm not sure I understand the question. We were just talking about the duration of an ability with Prep Required once it's activated, assuming that the base Advantage is Always On (thus infinite duration, if you want to look at it that way).

The various times are most often specified in the specific rules for the Advantages and modifiers. There's not a global rule (as far as I know) or a formal list of a range of times (10s / 60s / 10m) -- though there's Extended Duration and Reduced Duration to construct whatever time you want. For instance, Afflictions of a switchable Advantage specify that they're on for one minute per point of failure of the HT roll to resist. Limited Use specifies that abilities with that Limitation activate for one minute per use. Preparation Required (B114) doesn't actually say how long an ability with that Limitation lasts once it's activated. Maximum Duration has its own scale (applied to Switchable abilities that would otherwise be Always On), but that's an extra Limitation.

AlexanderHowl's point was that the text for defaults on B101 applies to "Advantages", strictly speaking, and so may be irrelevant once you've built an ability out of them. There's a grey zone here. Possible choices include:

- Prep Required doesn't affect the duration of an ability. If it's Always On, once you prep it and activate it, it might stay on forever if you choose never to prep another ability. If nothing says otherwise, why assume there's a limit?
- Prep Required does affect duration of activation, like so many similar Limitations. It doesn't have its own rule (like all those other relatives do), and so the base Advantage duration in the ability is covered by the B112 text, for lack of any more specific value.
- Prep Required includes a duration limit, like Limited Use -- say, one minute, as that's what Limited Use says. This assumption is more harmonious with existing similar modifiers, but it's not official (AFAIK).

My brain keeps telling me there's a rule for a default of one minute for activations, but I didn't see that in Powers when I was looking while writing my previous post.

Attacks are a little different. They're "Transient", which means that their effect is instantaneous. They go bang or whoosh or poof or whatever, without a relevant duration during the turn. It does normally take time to make that attack, typically with a Ready or Concentrate Maneuver, after which the effect just instantly happens. But that's not the same as the duration of the effect, rather the time to activate (sort of like Immediate Prep Required). If that attack is to Afflict Something Bad, then Something Bad would have that margin-of-failure-in-minutes duration I mentioned in the first paragraph. Other attacks would have other durations.

Last edited by Anaraxes; 10-23-2019 at 07:54 PM.
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Old 10-23-2019, 05:15 PM   #17
evileeyore
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Default Re: [Basic] Duration of Advantages with Preparation Required limitation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
There's a grey zone here. Possible choices include:

- Prep Required doesn't affect the duration of an ability. If it's Always On, once you prep it and activate it, it might stay on forever if you choose never to prep another ability. If nothing says otherwise, why assume there's a limit?
This is perfectly fine when there is more than one Prep Req limited ability.

Quote:
- Prep Required does affect duration of activation, like so many similar Limitations. It doesn't have its own rule (like all those other relatives do), and so the base Advantage duration in the ability is covered by the B112 text, for lack of any more specific value.
I presume you mean B101?

Quote:
- Prep Required includes a duration limit, like Limited Use -- say, one minute, as that's what Limited Use says. This assumption is more harmonious with existing similar modifiers, but it's not official (AFAIK).
And there's ye olde "make up the duration you feel works best for your game".


Quote:
Attacks are a little different.
Prep Req is actively bad for attacks. For attack abilities I'd go with other Limitations like Limited Use (Reloadable).

For Afflictions, Prep Req wouldn't limit how long the Affliction lasted, but you wouldn't be able to Afflict anyone else until you prepped another use of the ability.
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Old 10-23-2019, 07:52 PM   #18
Anaraxes
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Duration of Advantages with Preparation Required limitation

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
I presume you mean B101?
Yes. I just too quickly grabbed the wrong reference from my earlier post :) Fixed in post #16.
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Old 10-24-2019, 11:43 AM   #19
Plane
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Duration of Advantages with Preparation Required limitation

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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
I'm not sure I understand the question. We were just talking about the duration of an ability with Prep Required once it's activated, assuming that the base Advantage is Always On (thus infinite duration, if you want to look at it that way).
Ah, you introduced that in response to Sorenant saying in first post...
As I understand, if you have an advantage continual effect like Flight, Talent and Damage Resistance, it will last indefinitely after being activated

I see Damage Resistance and DR as always-on by default but I'm not entirely sure about Flight...

I guess if it was Flight (Winged) I would see the point (buying switchable to make the wings vanish?) but I'm wondering, for basic Flight is there actually any passive effect of having that advantage which applies when not actively choosing to fly?

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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
The various times are most often specified in the specific rules for the Advantages and modifiers. There's not a global rule (as far as I know) or a formal list of a range of times (10s / 60s / 10m) -- though there's Extended Duration and Reduced Duration to construct whatever time you want.
Modifying with Extended/Reduced would still require knowing the baseline time of a "use" which seems to be set at different starting amounts depending on which limitation is taken though.

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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
For instance, Afflictions of a switchable Advantage specify that they're on for one minute per point of failure of the HT roll to resist. Limited Use specifies that abilities with that Limitation activate for one minute per use.
In that case, wouldn't it be "I can shoot Afflictions for one minute" for the Limited-Use attacker, with no change in duration for how long the effects of the attack last?

That gets blurry where you interpret the attacker as getting to control how the advantage works though, but I think generally that's supposed to be an instantaneous choice ("I choose where you Warp to ONCE, but then I can't keep warping you around for the next minute") rather than a prolonged one... but if it was prolonged then control should perhaps expire after 1 minute rather than MoF minutes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
Possible choices include:

- Prep Required doesn't affect the duration of an ability. If it's Always On, once you prep it and activate it, it might stay on forever if you choose never to prep another ability. If nothing says otherwise, why assume there's a limit?
One place I'm drawn to think of is how Enchanted Items work...

In the case of having a "Power" enchantment, if it covers maintenance cost then you pay to switch it on, and it will remain on indefinitely as long as you are conscious, but turns off once you're no longer conscious....

To actually have it remain active while unconscious is a whole other requirement, where "Power" also has to be able to afford the activation cost too.

In the sense of advantages, maybe a "use" of the power could be tied into requiring its user to be conscious?

I can't remember if that's a 0-point feature. DR that shuts off automatically when unconscious would be great if someone is trying to kill you after knocking you out, but less great if someone needed to inject you with a life-saving drug and the needle can't penetrate your iron skin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
- Prep Required does affect duration of activation, like so many similar Limitations. It doesn't have its own rule (like all those other relatives do), and so the base Advantage duration in the ability is covered by the B112 text, for lack of any more specific value.
This probably makes more sense, even though we have different lengths of time given for "use" under certain limitations, it isn't clear we're intended to use either of those outside the context of those limitations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
- Prep Required includes a duration limit, like Limited Use -- say, one minute, as that's what Limited Use says. This assumption is more harmonious with existing similar modifiers, but it's not official (AFAIK).
Isn't limited use instantaneous (not a minute) for stuff like Innate Attack though? I can't say I like that, because "I can shoot fireballs for 1 full minute every 24 hours" is still pretty limited compared to "I can shoot fireballs whenever I want" and should be worth something... whereas "I can shoot 1 fireball per day" is super rough...

My brain keeps telling me there's a rule for a default of one minute for activations, but I didn't see that in Powers when I was looking while writing my previous post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
Attacks are a little different. They're "Transient", which means that their effect is instantaneous. They go bang or whoosh or poof or whatever, without a relevant duration during the turn.
We can perceive a "duration in which I can use my transient abilities" though. Would the only way to legally do that be to take Shapeshifting (w/ Limited Use + Maximum Duration) and your Alternate Form has Innate Attack?

That weirdly, might actually turn out to be cheaper+better than taking Limited Use on Innate Attack directly.
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