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Old 07-14-2018, 08:29 PM   #161
Shostak
 
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Default Re: New Skills

But I think Rick's concern was that with the cost of talents, you could not build someone competent in the way Conan was--stealthy, shrewd, weapon master, equestrian, sailor, etc.
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Old 07-14-2018, 08:36 PM   #162
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Default Re: New Skills

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Originally Posted by Shostak View Post
But I think Rick's concern was that with the cost of talents, you could not build someone competent in the way Conan was--stealthy, shrewd, weapon master, equestrian, sailor, etc.
How much of an outlier do we want Conan to be? A one-in-a-million hero, or something to which everyone can aspire and some will actually reach?

It sounds like we're going to switch from one to the other. I'm not sure which is better.
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Old 07-14-2018, 08:52 PM   #163
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Default Re: New Skills

Somewhat germane to that, I have added some commentary to the explantion of Intelligence:

Note: Just because the abbreviations are the same, don’t mistake game “IQ” for the factor that is measured by a real-world IQ test. IQ 18 doesn’t mean that you have a real-world IQ of 180. It means that you have learned a lot of things and keep in practice with them.
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Old 07-14-2018, 09:06 PM   #164
Rick_Smith
 
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Default Memory cost of skills.

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Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
... But Guy's points / slot idea still means that expensive talents become proportionally more valuable than 'small' talents like Horsemanship, Seamanship, Driving, Climbing, etc.

But using Guy's rules (but not using the mIQ = [total attr.]/2), the Ranger Prince could be created by creating a character with ST 11, DX 14, IQ 15. (Ignoring points, the character needs 16 slots, but less one for the Tactics / Strategist saving. Further the character could eventually pick up Expert Naturalist as a bonus.)

So Guy's rules actually addresses my major concern.

Warm regards, Rick.
Hi all,
Guy had suggested that talents cost more XP to buy, but always fit into a single memory slot. (Kinda like how spells always fit into a single memory slot.)

Shostak, mentioned the Grey Mouser. If we wanted to write up the Grey Mouser, we might pick the following talents:

Sword(2), Two Handed Weapons (3) (he wields scalpel & cats claw), Fencing (3), Thrown Weapons (2), Seamanship (1), Boating (1), Sex Appeal (1), Running (2), Horsemanship (1), Swimming (1), Charisma (2), Silent Movement (2), Recognize Value (1), Assess Value(1), Climbing (1) (He and Fafrd climbed the mountain Stardock after all), Brawling (1), Thief (2), Master Thief (2), Disguise (2) and a couple spells since he was trained as a magician and occasionally dabbled in magic. This is equal to 32 mIQ + what ever spells you want to give him.

Some possible talents which I've not included are: Tactics (1), Master Horsemanship (1), Carousing (1), New Followers (2), Tracking (1), Diplomacy (1), Captain (2), a couple languages, and a few others.


Under the rules Guy was suggesting, (where each talent fits into a single slot) the Mouser would need 19 memory slots, (plus any spells), which might just be possible under the new TFT.

However, in the Unarmed Combat thread, Steve was saying that UC i thru v would take up a full 9 memory slots. This means that exotic multi-class characters like (Pirates AND Thief), (Bandit Leader AND Ranger), and (Master Merchants) are impossible in new TFT.

***

For those who don't remember, this is my dimwitted, but friendly pirate whom I want to play:

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Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
... Most adventurers want to have a few fighting skills, (say Sword, Shield, & Running), and if they take some other talents (Thief, Detect Traps, Climbing, & Silent MA), then they are DONE. ... Boating, Seamanship & Swimming ... Charisma or Sex Appeal. ...Guns and Missile Weapons ...
I consider this THE major problem with new TFT.

What conceivable bonus to game play or role playing is achieved, by making memory so tight that you can't be both a thief and a pirate?

Warm regards, Rick.

Last edited by Rick_Smith; 07-14-2018 at 11:17 PM.
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Old 07-14-2018, 09:44 PM   #165
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Default Re: Price of talents

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Originally Posted by tomc View Post
You could just go ahead and create Conan with any stats you want, as an NPC. But you couldn't take a normal hero and advance him to Conan like stats with the new rules.

The problem is that if the rules allow for it, then heroes can advance to it, and folks will call it "attribute bloat".
That's not actually how anyone defined "attribute bloat." That particular problem arose because the ONLY way to create Conan was to create Conan the Nuclear Physicist. The real issue comes when we tie the number of Talents/Spells to the IQ number in some arbitrary fashion. I can easily see keeping certain talents at a higher IQ, since some require more brainpower/will/concentration to learn than others, but saying you can only have X number of talents (where X equals the number of IQ points you have) is the root of the problem, and not how anyone actually learns anything.

For example, I have the following talents (in no particular order): Language (English), Language (Russian), Language (German), Language (Spanish, well, Tex-Mex, really, but it still qualifies), Literacy, Scholarship (History), Fly (Helicopter), Light Infantryman, Marksmanship, Rifle, Pistol, Mathematics, Scholarship (Targeting), Running, Sword (Rapier, Foil and Sabre), Fencing, UC I, UC II, UC III, Leadership, Tactics, Strategy, Navigation, and probably one or two more that I'm not thinking of right now. I can virtually guarantee that my IQ isn't 30+ however. If I can learn that many skills (admittedly, I'm in my late 50's now), then anyone with a reasonable IQ, similar to mine, can do it too. Most of the people on here that are my age are probably just as skilled as I am in different fields, and would probably come up with around the same number of skills, many of which are quite expensive.

In short, this continuing need to somehow "limit" what people can learn (OTHER than saying that if you have an IQ of 7, you can't learn skills of IQ 8 or higher) seems to me to be greatly misplaced. And once you remove that oddball limitation, then Conan is easy to create using the current attribute caps and XP rules. (By "easy" I mean it can be accomplished within the limits -- clearly learning all that stuff that Conan knew would be a LOT of XP and take quite a while.)

Last edited by JLV; 07-14-2018 at 10:10 PM.
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Old 07-15-2018, 12:20 AM   #166
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Default Re: New Skills

^ My feeling is exactly what JLV just posted.
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Old 07-15-2018, 04:22 AM   #167
zot
 
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Default Re: Memory cost of skills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
...
This is equal to 32 mIQ + what ever spells you want to give him.
...
Under the rules Guy was suggesting, (where each talent fits into a single slot) the Mouser would need 19 memory slots, (plus any spells), which might just be possible under the new TFT.

However, in the Unarmed Combat thread, Steve was saying that UC i thru v would take up a full 9 memory slots. This means that exotic multi-class characters like (Pirates AND Thief), (Bandit Leader AND Ranger), and (Master Merchants) are impossible in new TFT.
...
I consider this THE major problem with new TFT.

What conceivable bonus to game play or role playing is achieved, by making memory so tight that you can't be both a thief and a pirate?
The old TFT would require IQ 32 for a character like that. I've never seen a character get to IQ 32 in TFT.
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Old 07-15-2018, 05:38 AM   #168
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Default Re: Memory cost of skills.

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Originally Posted by zot View Post
The old TFT would require IQ 32 for a character like that. I've never seen a character get to IQ 32 in TFT.
Hi Zot,
You are totally right. The Mouser was impossible in the old TFT, but most TFT campaigns which have lasted 40 years, have ways to give more memory.

I've seen, education attributes, memory = 2x IQ, "Elves get Naturalist, Woodsman, Tracking and Bow for free, only makes sense", everyone gets certain talents for free. I've seen David Seagraves in this Thail campaign give people the ability to buy memory like a sub attribute, On this forum, people have said that they use the rule that every talent fits in one memory slot. If I remember correctly JLV has said that talents in his campaign require zero memory slots, and are bought with experience. I've reduced the price of talents by 1/2 in many cases, and allow 1/2 memory point talents & languages.

I'm not saying EVERY campaign has founds cheats, big or small. But most do.

The number and variety of ways different GM's have found to get more memory suggest that 40 years of play testing indicates that this is a real problem.

***

The new TFT will have this problem worse. In the old TFT, you could keep getting attributes, and buy more IQ. Sure, you have a dumb fighter, but to get the talents he wants, you end up with IQ 18. But with a maximum attribute limit of 40, people can customize their characters with only 8 attributes. If you want a 15 DX and a 12+ ST, getting an IQ 18 for all those talents won't be in the cards.

***
I want to write up a Monk detective like Brother Cadfael. He started out as a successful noble military leader but grew sick at the violence and greed, and retired to become a Benedictine monk. With a surprisingly modern view of evidence and criminology, he solves murders. His talents include:

Sword, Fencing, Knife, Shield, Alertness, Priest, Theologian, Language Latin, Language French, Literacy, Gardener, Physicker, Master Physicker, Tracking, Naturalist, Woodsman, Detection of Lies, Scholar (Criminology, Healing/Poisoning Herbs), Chemist.

(I could give him more based on the novels. UC 1, Courtly Graces, & Diplomacy would likely fit.)

Playing a Monk/Detective like this would be fun. I can do it in Matt's TFT campaign, but it is not in the cards for new TFT.

Warm regards, Rick.

Last edited by Rick_Smith; 07-15-2018 at 06:11 AM.
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Old 07-15-2018, 05:52 AM   #169
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Default Re: New Skills

Where is the balance point between too few skill points and too many?
Are we going for an old school “few skills” feeling? Where skill means your character is REALLY good at that thing? Or do we want the everybody has a bunch of skills situation? Where sometimes characters begin to feel a little “samey” because they all pick a bunch of like skills?
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Old 07-15-2018, 06:00 AM   #170
Chris Rice
 
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Default Re: New Skills

I know I've mentioned this before, but there was a simple fix for this in an old Space Gamer article.

Split attributes into their components:

ST splits into: Strength and Constitution.
DX splits into: Dexterity and Agility.
IQ splits into: Intelligence and Knowledge.

With IQ split this way it's simple to have as many Talents as you want as long as you put XP into Knowledge and you can do this without boosting IQ.

This way, Rick's "Cadfael" character is easily possible without any other rule changes.
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