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Old 01-14-2011, 09:13 AM   #41
Frosty
 
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Default Re: Is there a reason why there is no table for submachine guns in GURPS Lite 4e?

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Originally Posted by Mailanka View Post
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Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
But information on how to deal with situations concerning certain content is missing and, to me, that makes them junk.
Then I'm afraid GURPS Lite is not the product for you.
I would hardly call it a product.

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
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Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
Then what game am I supposed to run with it?
Seriously? How many genres absolutely need SMGs? WWII or early Cold War Spec Ops? Don't run uber-detailed gun-bunny games with GURPS Lite. You can still run lots and lots of games, basically anything that doesn't require modern milspec hardware or supernatural powers. Historical Low Fantasy, Police Procedurals, Tea Cozies, Wilderness Survival, most Horror, most (non-mil, not Space Opera) SF.
My RP isn't uber-detailed, but it would be nice to have the stats for a submachine gun available. It saves me pulling numbers out of my ass that look like fudge but don't taste (or smell) as good. If GURPS Lite Fourth Edition can provide the stats for a pump-action shotgun and a 9mm semi-automatic pistol, why can't they provide the stats for a submachine gun?

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
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So why is it still there?
No idea, I guess they didn't consider it errata. You can always fudge something. It's no worse than a lot of rules light free systems in that.
I don't feel like repeating myself. You can go back over my old replies for a detailed explanation, or look above for a simple (but less tasteful) version.

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
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I couldn't agree more, sir_pudding
Then what's the issue exactly? If it didn't have sufficient detail in the traits, then it wouldn't be as useful to a player in a "full" GURPS game, would it?
Actually, I felt that there was sufficient detail in the traits, just not how and when to apply them. GURPS Lite Fourth Edition works as a resource for players because they're not pulling the strings behind the curtain.

I believe that if one of my players reads GURPS Lite Fourth Edition and decides that they want their character to be a surgeon, they should have the right to make their character a surgeon so long as they pick appropriate advantages, disadvantages, skills, et cetera and provide a decent backstory. Their character shouldn't be made useless because I don't know how to apply their skills in a situation because the manual doesn't specify, because the skills aren't even meant to be in the manual in the first place.

Dig?

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
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If it is possible to see GURPS Lite in action without the (missing) rules and mechanics of how to mediate and determine the consequences of situations, then please do explain how.
Don't run early 20th gun-bunny games.
My hands are tied.

However, that's not your problem and I'm not making it yours.

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
You should try to emulate some Agatha Christie, Arthur Conan Doyle, John London, John Grisham, Issac Asimov, or like 90% of the fiction ever written, that doesn't feature SMGs.
GURPS is a foreign concept to my regular players and it is an extraterrestrial concept to players who aren't regular.

I feel that the familiarity of a world grounded in reality as we know it now is the best way to ease them in, rather than shoving them straight into the deep-end, cold turkey.

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
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Except that you have to resort to third-party content and fan resources to make parts of the game work.
No you don't. You need to buy the full product if you want to use all of its features. This isn't any different from demonstration versions of most things in the world.
I want a system that works. I don't want to read GURPS Lite and find "REFER TO SOMETHING ELSE OTHER THAN THIS" written under every other entry of advantages, disadvantages, skills, et cetera.

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
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But information on how to deal with situations concerning certain content is missing and, to me, that makes them junk.
I thought you agreed that that content is useful to GURPS player that doesn't own the Basic Set.
I do.

But I'm not playing. I'm a GM and I'm trying to create a fun, playable adventure.

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
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I don't like fudging numbers, especially considering that I have a limited understand of GURPS (and much less of what goes on behind the curtain). I resort to third-party sources and fan projects, and find the most common denominators.
If you are going to run a demonstration game, don't try to break the system.
The system is already broken.

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
To go back to your car analogy, you wouldn't try to test drive a car on the beach, in the rain, at 180mph, would you? Don't try to run Uber-Psionic-Gun-Bunnies-with-Magic-and-Kung Fu with GURPS Lite. It's a demo, run something simple, that covers the basic mechanics of the system (character creation, skill rolls and damage).
If the manual of the car mentions "can be driven on the beach, in the rain, at 180 mph", then why wouldn't I want to test it?

I'm not trying to run a "Uber-Psionic-Gun-Bunnies-with-Magic-and-Kung Fu" adventure, I'm trying to run a fun, playable adventure.

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
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What irritates me is that they didn't take out the content that had no resources to back it up.
Again, if they did it would be less useful to somebody who is playing in a game that uses the full rules.
But GURPS Lite and standard GURPS don't even use the same mechanics, so, tell me, what the hell is the point?

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
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How am I supposed to tell a player that they shouldn't take the Missile Weapon (Submachine Gun) skill because the game doesn't provide weapon stats for a submachine gun
"Why would a Caveman/Edwardian Schoolmarm/Hard-boiled Detective/Xeno-Biologist need a submachine gun, Larry?"
The question is "When?", not "Why?"

It also applies to everything else mentioned by Mailanka.

More replies coming.
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Old 01-14-2011, 09:26 AM   #42
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Default Re: Is there a reason why there is no table for submachine guns in GURPS Lite 4e?

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Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
But I'm not playing. I'm a GM and I'm trying to create a fun, playable adventure.
Then buy the books instead of whining about a free product which is meant as a handout for players, not as a reference for GMs.

GURPS Lite is similar to read only Acrobat Reader, you can't modify a PDF or make a new one with it, you're only supposed to use Lite to get a rough idea of what the system is like.

Or in a more book-like reference, GURPS Lite is the equivalent of the blurb on the back of a paperback book, someone trying to run a game using just GURPS Lite is like someone writing a review of a book based on its back cover.
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Old 01-14-2011, 09:30 AM   #43
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Default Re: Is there a reason why there is no table for submachine guns in GURPS Lite 4e?

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Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
All that I'm asking for is a functional demo system, not a half-baked mishmash of copypasta'd standard GURPS mechanics and simplified GURPS mechanics.


My issue isn't that I have to pay to get the real deal, my issue is that I have parts of the real deal and parts of the simplified deal. Unfortunately, you need all of either deal just to run an adventure.


I would prefer it if they didn't reference advantages, disadvantages, skills, et cetera in the other books at all, especially if they can't be utilised properly.



Not to sound like a broken record, but I would prefer it if they didn't reference advantages, disadvantages, skills, et cetera in the other books at all, especially if they can't be utilised.


I'm not expecting everything for free, all I expect is a functional system demo of the real deal. Something that can stand up on its own two legs without being supported of third-party resources and overshadowed by its bigger brothers.

All of this reads to me as if you are under some sort of misapprehension.

You seem to believe that

A) GURPS Lite is supposed to be a simplified version of the rules.
B) That GURPS Lite is made up of a mix of simplified and normal rules.
C) I forgot what I was going to put here...

In the case of A) this is wrong. It is not a simplified version of the rules. It is a condensed version of the rules. Everything that appears in Lite is also in the full version. Most of the optional rules have been removed for Lite.

In the case of B) this is also wrong. All of the rules are the same between the two versions. The only difference is, as above, the vast majority of the optional rules were not included.

Personally I would put the ratio of required to optional content in the two volumes of the Basic Set as somewhere around 98% of it is optional with only 2% required.

You have everything required to play. You only have a small amount of the optional rules included to showcase.


That said, the inclusion of some items that are based on one of the optional rules seems like a mistake. However, that does not mean you cannot use them. Just pretend that the optional portion doesn't exist and use them like you would any other item for which you have the rules.


So it seems you are saying that it is unusable because it is comprised of two different, incompatible, sets of rules. What you actually have is the most basic rules with all of the optional rules removed.
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Old 01-14-2011, 09:42 AM   #44
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Default Re: Is there a reason why there is no table for submachine guns in GURPS Lite 4e?

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Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
I want a system that works. I don't want to read GURPS Lite and find "REFER TO SOMETHING ELSE OTHER THAN THIS" written under every other entry of advantages, disadvantages, skills, et cetera.
Then you should probably guy Basic Set rather than try to use a distillation of the game's rules, by definition that means stuff is left out. You can't seriously be surprised that a lot of details are left out when the rules go from 600 pages long to 30 pages long.
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Old 01-14-2011, 09:47 AM   #45
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Default Re: Is there a reason why there is no table for submachine guns in GURPS Lite 4e?

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Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
I believe that if one of my players reads GURPS Lite Fourth Edition and decides that they want their character to be a surgeon, they should have the right to make their character a surgeon so long as they pick appropriate advantages, disadvantages, skills, et cetera and provide a decent backstory. Their character shouldn't be made useless because I don't know how to apply their skills in a situation because the manual doesn't specify, because the skills aren't even meant to be in the manual in the first place.

You may need to explain this one more. If you are looking for something that says something like:

For a surgeon to repair the damage to an artery caused by a bullet, while taking cover in a straw hut that is being attacked, have the player roll against their surgery skill at a -15 difficulty.

You won't find it even in the complete Basic Set. This is a GM call, and you won't find instructions like that in the book.
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Old 01-14-2011, 10:00 AM   #46
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Default Re: Is there a reason why there is no table for submachine guns in GURPS Lite 4e?

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Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company View Post
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Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
Then what game am I supposed to run with it?
You're not supposed to run anything with it. From the front page of GURPS Lite:

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Originally Posted by GURPS Lite, p. 1
This is the boiled-down “essence” of
GURPS: all the fundamental rules, but not
the options and embellishments that often
confuse new players. Once you’re comfortable
with these rules, you can pick up the
GURPS Basic Set and jump right into the
action. Experienced Game Masters will, we
hope, find this a valuable tool for
introducing new players to the game.
It's a tool for the GM, who is assumed to either have a greater range of GURPS stuff or be comfortable with improvising and/or coming up with his own material, to get players oriented in the system by showing them the fundamentals of the rules and presenting situations which are likely to arise across genres (no matter what genre, people are likely to fight, be injured and need care, climb things, try to find things which aren't immediately evident, etc.; not every campaign needs rules for magic, automatic weapons, force fields, etc.). It is in no way intended to be complete in itself, nor enough to run a campaign, and it says so on both the e23 page and at the very beginning of the book itself.
I see anything in that quote that remotely resembles, "You're not supposed to run anything with it."

Also, the quote somewhat works against your argument. GURPS Lite Fourth Edition dictates, "Once you're comfortable with these rules, you can pick up the GURPS: Basic Set and jump right into the action."

Which suggests, to me, that it is a learning tool for newbies and not for veterans. This is backed up with the following, "Experienced Game Masters will, we hope, find this a valuable tool for introducing new players to the game."

This further supports my opinion, because it directly confirms it. GURPS Lite Fourth Edition can be used by an experienced GM as a learning tool for newbs, like you said, but that is not its only purpose. There's no reason why a newbie can't cut out the middle man and begin learning GURPS right away.

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Originally Posted by Darekun View Post
My own objection to GURPS Lite is that it isn't low-res, just incomplete. For example, GURPS Ultra-Lite is very low-res, but complete. It's a simpler game. GURPS Lite, OTOH, is a slice of full GURPS. Hm, Frosty, have you looked at GURPS Ultra-Lite?
No, I haven't.

I was under the impression that GURPS Ultra-Lite would be nothing more than a Post-it note with the words, "SEE GURPS: SOMETHING ELSE" scribbled on it.

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Originally Posted by Darekun View Post
Of course, I want a system that generally lets me tune the res to the campaign. GURPS isn't that system; for the most part, it doesn't change res, instead it changes completeness. So Lite actually works as a better demo the way it is, that's just not a good thing :J
I just want a beginner's system to learn the ropes with, that can actually function independently without relying on GURPS: Something Else.

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Originally Posted by Lupo View Post
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Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
Or do I have to buy one of the books first, to find out?
Well, actually that's kind of the point - GURPS books are meant to be bought, since GURPS is a commercial book and the authors write them hoping to earn some money.
Are you suggesting that I should buy a book to find usable ideas for adventures and campaigns for a roleplaying system that prides itself on being generic and universal?

Forget it.

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Originally Posted by Lupo View Post
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Well, GURPS does stand for "Generic Universal RolePlaying System", does it not?
Yes, it is called GURPS, not FURPS, because it's not supposed to be free. You can find several free games on the net.
I don't ever remember claiming that GURPS should be free, so I have no idea what you're on about.

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Originally Posted by Lupo View Post
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So doesn't that mean GURPS Lite Fourth Edition should be called RPS Lite Fourth Edition instead?
(…)

Except that you have to resort to third-party content and fan sources to make parts of the game work.
Your complaints appear totally absurd to me.
Your replies appear totally absurd to me.

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Originally Posted by Lupo View Post
You are actually complaining...
Yes.

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Originally Posted by Lupo View Post
… that a free, "demo" booklet…
Yes.

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Originally Posted by Lupo View Post
… does not suit your, quite high, expectations?
No. I do not have "quite high" expectations, I have basic expectations.

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Originally Posted by Lupo View Post
It's not like you paid for it, I don't see how you can whine about it.
I'm not whining. I'm making a legitimate complaint and when people reply with counter-arguments, they only sidestep the issue.

You are a convenient example.

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Originally Posted by Lupo View Post
Let me explain that GURPS Lite is not a free, standalone game, it's just the "demo" for GURPS, an introductory tool for new players.
I already read the introduction.

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Originally Posted by Lupo View Post
But I think you already know that…
Yes, I do.

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Originally Posted by Lupo View Post
… actually, I am starting to think you came here on bad faith.
What a coincidence! I was having the same thoughts about you.

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Originally Posted by Lupo View Post
Either that, or you have really weird ideas about RPGs, and commercial books/games in general.
I don't think that standards are weird and I doubt that anyone else does, either.
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Old 01-14-2011, 10:01 AM   #47
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Default Re: Is there a reason why there is no table for submachine guns in GURPS Lite 4e?

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Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
I would hardly call it a product.
It's a demo. You seem to expect the complete treatment of GURPS to be found in those 30 pages. To state this as simply as I can: It doesn't, because you can't fit 600 pages of material into 30, and it's not really the practice of SJGames to give away their complete product in their demo.


Quote:
My RP isn't uber-detailed, but it would be nice to have the stats for a submachine gun available. It saves me pulling numbers out of my ass that look like fudge but don't taste (or smell) as good. If GURPS Lite Fourth Edition can provide the stats for a pump-action shotgun and a 9mm semi-automatic pistol, why can't they provide the stats for a submachine gun?
"I want X. Why can't they have X? X is very very important. It's obviously a major oversight that they didn't stick X into this tiny, free demo."

Replace X with any number of things that people might want. How is your demand any greater, any more important, than theirs? If you want a complete product, buy the book.

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The system is already broken.
If you've already decided it's crap, why are we even having this discussion.

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If the manual of the car mentions "can be driven on the beach, in the rain, at 180 mph", then why wouldn't I want to test it?
Except you don't have the car. Your analogy is terrible. If you really had the complete package and were testing it, you'd actually have a borrowed copy of GURPS. You don't have that, you have a cut down, very limited version. Like I said, it's more like a demo of a computer game, you know, the one that only lets you play 3 out of the games 20 levels, or only lets you play one of the three classes, or what have you.

You sound like the guy shouting "Why can't there be 20 levels! It says there are 20 levels." There are, in the full game. You don't have that. You have the demo. You want submachine guns? Buy the bit that has submachine guns.

Quote:
It also applies to everything else mentioned by Mailanka.
I don't even know what this means.
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Old 01-14-2011, 10:03 AM   #48
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Default Re: Is there a reason why there is no table for submachine guns in GURPS Lite 4e?

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Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
My RP isn't uber-detailed, but it would be nice to have the stats for a submachine gun available. It saves me pulling numbers out of my ass that look like fudge but don't taste (or smell) as good.
It looks like you are not very familiar with "simple & light" roleplaying games.
ALL the RPGs of that kind that I've ever read, assumed that the GM "would be pulling numbers out of his ass".
It's just how these games works; rules-lightness require fudging by the GM.
Detailed, complete games require lots of pages.

If you know any game which is really simple (e.g., 32 pages) yet complete and detailed, please tell me which game it is!
I will happily stop playing GURPS and use this "magical" game instead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
I would hardly call it a product.
(...)
The system is already broken.
(...)
But GURPS Lite and standard GURPS don't even use the same mechanics, so, tell me, what the hell is the point?
[EDIT: I self-censor my answer to that, in order to minimize further flaming. I wrote it before I realized the tone this thread had taken; I don't think I was offensive, but it could surely be interpreted as "unpleasant".
Frosty, I apologize if I was somewhat adversarial and I couldn't help you. Best wishes for your campaign.]
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Old 01-14-2011, 10:10 AM   #49
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Default Re: Is there a reason why there is no table for submachine guns in GURPS Lite 4e?

This thread is getting heated and the people who would usually be able to explain this more clearly are all in a conference room about 30 feet from me, not paying attention to the forums. So I'm closing the thread until they have a chance to get back and take a look.

I would remind ALL posters that we require civility in discussions here; if you find yourself getting agitated because of something someone said, it's time to close the window and do something else for a while.
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Old 01-14-2011, 12:39 PM   #50
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Default Re: Is there a reason why there is no table for submachine guns in GURPS Lite 4e?

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Originally Posted by Andrew Hackard View Post
This thread is getting heated and the people who would usually be able to explain this more clearly are all in a conference room about 30 feet from me, not paying attention to the forums.
Caught your PM and stopped in, as we're taking a lunch break. Thanks for the heads up.

Lupo and Frosty, you're both past the line with the arguments. There's no reason to get this cranky over a game, guys.

And to answer the OP, there are close to a hundred tables that you can find in the Basic Set that you won't find in Lite. That's because Lite is essentially a demo for real GURPS, so you can get a taste of what the game is like. It doesn't include everything you need to run any kind of game, and doesn't pretend to. On its own, you can't really run games focusing on magic, heavy guns, psi, space survival, etc. And that's why Lite is free. It includes as much GURPS as we could fit into 32 pages, with a focus on portability across multiple campaigns when possible.

(Please do not start a new thread on this subject or one transparently similar. Everyone needs to cool down on this topic. Thank you.)
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