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Old 12-23-2006, 09:28 PM   #11
Kaldrin
 
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Default Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template

This subject is far too complicated for most to deal with. You might be the few that actually have something to put in.

I would note that a few of the representative characters differ directly from what Tolkien described as a generalization for the subsets of the Quendi. To me that means his descriptions might have been almost metaphorical, perhaps the spirit of the race, rather than direct abilities.
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Old 12-23-2006, 11:47 PM   #12
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Default Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agemegos
No, but it is of 'lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas' who have 'dwelled in the Blessed Realm'. A noldo born in in Middle-earth (of Exile parents) would not have these capabilities.

I think you want a separate 'Calaquenda' lens for individuals who, regardless of race, 'came into Aman in the days of the Two Trees'. (There is some indication that such individuals literally glow, and can be seen to do so in the dark, eg. Frodo's encounter with Gildor in Book I chapter 3.)
Very true. I was not considering elves born to Exile parents. That should be done. Point taken.

As far as the glowing goes, I believe you refer to the following quote: “They bore no lights, yet as they walked a shimmer, like the light of the moon above he rim of the hills before it rises, seemed to fall about their feet.” I saw that myself and wondered if the was innate to certain branch of elves or if this were elven “magic”. BTW – I am not sure how I want to handle magic in Middle-earth yet. I gave them all Magery One. I seemed to fit regardless of the route I go. That is to be considered later, but is something I want the rules to address in some way or another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelSammallahti
You have a point about total immunity. Then again, I doubt anything less than a balrog or dragon could scare one of them, and such creatures might well have Terror with the Cosmic enhancement.

Since Fright Checks always fail on 14+, an elf with Will 21 and 10 levels of Fearlessness will only notice a difference if the Fright Check has a penalty of -19 or worse. That's a penalty that eliminates any ordinary human's - even a really extraordinary one's - chance to resist altogether. And since Fearlessness both subtracts from Intimidate and adds to Will to resist, they'll be on even terms with someone whose Intimidate skill is 41! I think they might do with a bit of downgrading.
Okay, so I have to adjust the Will thing. I’ll put the pen to paper and make adjustments in the next version. I did not realize how over the top I was going. I do want to control stat inflation I don’t want to do with higher stats and more abilities than what I can do with something less – and still remain faithful to their portrayal (albeit my interpretation) in the novels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrneson
Just FYI, not that your development should stop, but here is how one person did it.
GURPS Rules for Middle Earth Campaigns

RH
Thanks. When I first started this project, that was some time ago, I did consult that source and integrated some components.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kelly_pedersen
One thing I'd suggest to add to the general elven template is Terrain Adaptation. You could either buy two or three versions (snow, leaves, etc.), or just spring for the Active enhancement, from Powers, which would let elves be light-footed on pretty much any solid terrain.
Interesting. Something like that I think should go in. You know, I intended to have a racial bonus to the light walking skill. That needs to go in the next version.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kelly_pedersen
Also, to the general template, you should probably add a level of Acute Vision and Acute Hearing. Elves are very perceptive all around, but their hearing and vision seem to stand out particularly.
I did give all elves four ranks of acute hearing and telescopic vision. I thought I had acute vision in their too, but it does not appear so. I’ll adjust.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kelly_pedersen
Also, I'd add Language Talent to the Noldo template. The Noldor seem to have had a genunine gift for languages - they picked up Sindar very quickly when they returned to Middle Earth, and they were able to understand human speech quite well. They were also responsible for a lot of the writing adaptations and suchlike that the elves used, and they seem to have actively attempted to make their language "better" deliberately.
Interesting again. I had thought about some kind of talent for crafts in the Noldo template, but I was thinking that this might be better represented by high individual skills for those who had learned from Aulë the Smith. Languages, huh? I’ll think on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasputin
I'm always skeptical of the IQ bonuses given to elves. I can definitely see Elrond having a high IQ, I cannot see this for the other main example from the core books, Legolas. I cannot see this for Arwen. Maybe I've drank too much of the purple Kool-Aid from Cult of Stat Normalization rituals, but I do not see the race as a whole having better IQ defaults. Never attribute to attribute what you can attribute to points in skill. (And don't use "attribute" too often in one sentence.)
I agree with the sentiment about looking first to skills and then to attributes. I did think a good bit about the IQ bonus. I’ll think again. Elrond’s personally I can see with a high IQ for sure. Hmmmm….

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaldrin
This subject is far too complicated for most to deal with. You might be the few that actually have something to put in.

I would note that a few of the representative characters differ directly from what Tolkien described as a generalization for the subsets of the Quendi. To me that means his descriptions might have been almost metaphorical, perhaps the spirit of the race, rather than direct abilities.
It is a difficult subject. This is why I went with the elves first since they are well known and might be the most controversial in some ways to try and stat out. I thought I might try and get the more difficult things out of the way first.

Thank you for the responses everyone. I think I got enough to make a revision. I’ll try posting a second version a little later on…

Gavynn
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Old 12-24-2006, 02:10 AM   #13
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Default Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template

Second Draft

NOLDO
It costs 373 points to play a Noldor elf.

Attribute Modifiers
+1 Strength [10]
+1 Intelligence [20]
+1 Dexterity [20]
+1 Health [10]

Languages
Sindarian (Native/Fully Literate) [0]
Quenya (Native/Fully Literate) [6]
Westron (Native/Fully Literate) [6]

Secondary Characteristics
Strong Will (+5) [25] (B.16)

Racial Advantages
Unfazeable [15] (B.95)
See Invisible (Spirits) [15]
True Faith (Turning +65%) [25] (B.94)
Medium [10] (B.68, P.59)
Spirit Empathy [10] (B.88)
Social Regard (+2) [10] (B.86) Does not apply to Dwarves

Racial Disadvantages
Sense of Duty – Elves [-15] (B.153)

Features
Dying Race [0]
Build – Add three inches to height [0]

Recommendations
Noldor Elves are suitable for the Weapon Master (B.99) advantage and/or Trained by a Master (B.93). Also, the great Noldor Warriors are eligible for weapon skills in the 22 or 23 range. At the discretion of the GM the greatest of all Noldor Warriors may possess weapon skills in the 24-26 range. Those elves who have been to the Blessed Realms may have the skill of Exorcism by virtue of their Of Two Worlds ability. Likewise, the Noldor are renowned for their skill at crafts and lore. Those Noldor who have dwelt in th Blessed Realms are likely to have high and varying lore skills. Thos elves who learned craftsmanship at the forge of Aule are likely to have exceedingly high craft skills (in the 22-23 range, or even the 24-26 range for the greatest of Elven Craftsmen.

NOTE: The template above assumes the character is one of those elves who have dwelt in Aman. For those Noldor who have been born after their return to Middle-earth should not possess those advantages related to the “Of Two Worlds” ability. It costs 298 points to play a Noldor that has never been across the sea.

FURTHER NOTE: The Unfazable advantage granted to the Noldor is related to their time spent in the Undying Lands. Any Noldor born to Exile parents would not possess this advantage. Additionally, this advantage is overmatched by any creature causing cosmic terror. In the case that a fright check is called for due to a creature causing cosmic terror, the elf rolls the fright check normally.

SINDA
It costs 317 points to play a Sindar Elf

Attribute Modifiers
+2 Dexterity [40]
+1 Intelligence [20]

Languages
Sindarian (Native/Fully Literate) [0]
Westron (Native/Fully Literate) [6]

Secondary Characteristics
Strong Will (+3) [15] (B.16)

Racial Advantages
Talent (Musical Ability) +2 [10] (B.89)
Voice [10] (B.93)
Social Regard (+2) [10] (B.86) Does not apply to Dwarves

Features
Dying Race [0]
Build – Add two inches to height [0]

SYLVAN
It costs 281 points to play a Sylvan elf.

Attribute Modifiers
+2 Dexterity [40]

Languages
Bethteur (Native/Fully Literate) [0]
Sindarian (Native/Fully Literate) [6]

Secondary Characteristics
Strong Will (+2) [10] (B.16)

Racial Advantages
Talent (Woodcrafty) +2 [10]
Plant Empathy [5] (B.75)
Social Regard (+1) [5] (B.86) Does not apply to Dwarves

Quirks
Mildly Xenophobic [-1]

Features
Dying Race [0]
Build – Add one inch to height [0]

ALL ELVES

Secondary Characteristics
Increased Perception (+5) [25] (B.16)

Racial Advantages
Magery Level Zero [5] (B.66)
Talent (Animal Friend) Four [20] (B.89)
Temperature Tolerance [10] (B.93)
Appearance (Attractive) [4] (B.21)
Danger Sense [15] (B.47)
Does not sleep [20] (B.50)
Telescopic Vision x5 [25] (B.92)
Fearless + 5 [10] (B.55)
Perfect Balance [15] (B.74)
Rapid Healing [5] (B.79)
Combat Reflexes [15] (B.43)
Unaging [15] (B.95)
Immunity to Sickness [15]
Acute Hearing +4 [8] (B.35)
Acute Vision +2 [4] B.35

Racial Disadvantages
Sense of Duty – Nature [-15] (B.15)

Racial Skill Bonuses
+3 to Stealth [6]
+3 to Light Walk [6]

Racial Quirks
Distrust of Dwarves [-1]
Sensitive to Black Speech [-1]

Features
Does not grow facial hair (until great age) [0]
Gracefully Pointed Ears [0]
Immune to Fear Caused by the Spirits of Men [0]
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Old 12-24-2006, 04:01 AM   #14
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Default Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasputin
I'm always skeptical of the IQ bonuses given to elves. I can definitely see Elrond having a high IQ, I cannot see this for the other main example from the core books, Legolas. I cannot see this for Arwen.
Since Arwen does absolutely nothing except look pretty, it is impossible to evaluate her brainpower. Legolas isn't an impressive brain, but of course a racial bonus to IQ doesn't mean every single member of the breed is all that bright. However, the Mirkwood elves in general seem to be a lesser breed.
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Old 12-25-2006, 12:12 PM   #15
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Default Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Johnston
Since Arwen does absolutely nothing except look pretty, it is impossible to evaluate her brainpower. Legolas isn't an impressive brain, but of course a racial bonus to IQ doesn't mean every single member of the breed is all that bright. However, the Mirkwood elves in general seem to be a lesser breed.
I would suggest at most an even score in IQ for the mirkwood elves, but certainly they have gained in craft and DX. All elves seem to have improved will power though.

For that, I think you're pretty close with your templates for the generic abilities of the race...er, Gavynn, that is.
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Old 12-26-2006, 06:49 AM   #16
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Default Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template

I think these look rather nice.

Some extra suggestions:

I'd personally drop the Acute Senses, and just go with the Per bonus. This would simplify the template and would also be more economical points-wise. (Not necessarily a concern, I know.) We don't hear about elves having particularly acute touch, taste, or smell, but I think it's a reasonable guess that it just doesn't come up in the narration.

Also, the racial skill bonuses. I think Acrobatics should be included in addition to Stealth and Light Walk (also because it's a prerequisite for the latter) but I also think they should be combined into a racial talent, as per p. B452 (possibly padded with one or two extra skills like Dancing or Jumping) or just forgotten. A generous bonus to DX might be quite enough.
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Old 12-26-2006, 09:07 AM   #17
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Default Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template

You may want to try to get a copy of ICe's Lord of middle earth (LOME) if you can borrow one for free .... Elf were in tome 1, immortals, if i remenber ... it's really awfull, but there was some nearly exhaustive overview of all of tolkien elfs (and other races) aspects, besides the rolemaster game stuff. Or i may be wrong and it was in another book. But i remenber one of those having several pages of dense text on various elfs lineage, who get into aman or not, who did what, wich could do what ... mine are in storage away, or i would check.
(Just don't look at the stats for the people/items .. its beyond ridiculous ... the +15 umbrella of lobelia baggins (strike as a mace) or the PP calculation of morgoth (a 5 digit number, and i am pretty sure the last digit was a 4, just in case he wanted to cast an extra firebolt ... ) or the great huor (hurin ?), who had about skill 350 in axe, of wich only 1 points (well, 5) came from training... )

This said,
-perhaps elves should get unkillable 3, with the limitation that they must reform in mandos caves ? otoh, its a lot of point to basically said that they are out of the game if dead ...
(feanor being the only one who traded it for spirit form and faded away )
-i wouldnt get elves any iq racial bonus. they have some great minds, but i don't remenber them being a genius race.
Language and craft talents, definitively.
-tolkien world is definitively a low 'mundane magic' world. is there a reason for the racial magery ?
perhaps rather a alchemy variant ?
-Elven enchantement (iq,vh): using innate material property and linking them with spirits realm elements, elven crafter can imbue many virtues into their craftmanship.
with a few 'fastly made' flashy 'elexir/charms' for the wood elves illusions toys, and some 'take 100000000$ in material and 30 years time, 16 hour a day, -19 to roll ' techniques for some of feanor and celebrimbor greatest hits...
add some divination, mind shield and some psy/faith healing, and you have all of elven magic covered. (galadriel and elrond exceptionnal feats could very well be atributed to either the rings, or the mystical link of a king to his realm: ie a good reaction roll to the local spirit world)
-i remenber seeing at thread about it but didnt followed it, but if someone posted a working 'dual-world-critter' package, elves back from aman qualifies : they are present in both the spirit world and middle earth, and their 'true' form is the spirit one.

Quote:
With his last failing senses Frodo heard cries, and it seemed to him that he saw, beyond the Riders that hesitated on the shore, a shining figure of white light; and behind it ran small shadowy forms waving flames,...
You would have became a wraith ...you were half in the wraith-world yourself, and they might have seized you. You could see them, and they could see you...just as the black robes are real robes that they wear to give shape to their nothingness when they have dealings with the living.
...I saw a white figure that shone and did not grow dim like the others
...you saw him for a moment as he is upon the other side..he rushed out, followed by Aragorn and the others with flaming brands. Caught between fire and water, and seeing an Elf-lord revealed in his wrath...
-they are not really unaging, they just will themselves to be it... perhaps a limitation on unaging (require a will roll, yearly) ?
-perhaps a racial quirk 'likes songs and singing' . it seems to be true for all brands.

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Old 12-28-2006, 12:03 PM   #18
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Default Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelSammallahti
I'd personally drop the Acute Senses, and just go with the Per bonus. This would simplify the template and would also be more economical points-wise. (Not necessarily a concern, I know.) We don't hear about elves having particularly acute touch, taste, or smell, but I think it's a reasonable guess that it just doesn't come up in the narration.
I was reading up on the way sense checks worked, and now I tend to agree. Boosting per effectively increases the acuteness of all of their senses simultaneously, then I can leave it to individual elves to increase their individual senses as he or she might see fit. I'll have to explain that to my players, though, as I am sure the first thing they will want to know is why elves don't have acute vision. So an increase in per and telescopic vision should cover that. With the acute vision and the per increase I was effectively doubling up, like I was doing with the will and the fearlessness earlier. You're right, point economy is not a particular concern of this template, just modeling the elves. I don't intend to allow elves as a PC race anyway. I think that elves having heightened sense of taste would fit well with the theme. I am thinking particularly in wines here. The elven palette can appreciate far more subtle variations in flavour than that of Men. I see that being a point in the story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelSammallahti
Also, the racial skill bonuses. I think Acrobatics should be included in addition to Stealth and Light Walk (also because it's a prerequisite for the latter) but I also think they should be combined into a racial talent, as per p. B452 (possibly padded with one or two extra skills like Dancing or Jumping) or just forgotten. A generous bonus to DX might be quite enough.
I noticed that Acrobatics was a prereq for Light Walk. That is one reason that I went with racial bonus to the skill rather than a racially learned skill, although I think the line between those is a bit vague. Since the skill bonus does not actually grant the skill, I thought it could bypass he need for the acrobatics. If I were stating up movie elves, I think racial acrobatics might be in order, but at the moment I am leery of granting them racial acrobatics. I’ll see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celjabba
You may want to try to get a copy of ICe's Lord of middle earth (LOME) if you can borrow one for free .... Elf were in tome 1, immortals, if i remenber ... it's really awfull, but there was some nearly exhaustive overview of all of tolkien elfs (and other races) aspects, besides the rolemaster game stuff. Or i may be wrong and it was in another book. But i remenber one of those having several pages of dense text on various elfs lineage, who get into aman or not, who did what, wich could do what ... mine are in storage away, or i would check.
Actually the ICE books were one of the sources I consulted. My books have been in storage too, and I am actually going to go through the boxes to find them this afternoon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celjabba
-perhaps elves should get unkillable 3, with the limitation that they must reform in mandos caves ? otoh, its a lot of point to basically said that they are out of the game if dead ...
(feanor being the only one who traded it for spirit form and faded away )
I see where you are going with this – and whoa – unkillable got a major boost from 3rd ed it looks like, IIRC. I did not realize that. After reading unkillable though, it just does not appear to fit the bill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celjabba
-i wouldnt get elves any iq racial bonus. they have some great minds, but i don't remenber them being a genius race.
Language and craft talents, definitively.
Language and craft talents I am still thinking on. Could anyone offer an example language or craft talent package they think might be suitable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celjabba
-tolkien world is definitively a low 'mundane magic' world. is there a reason for the racial magery ? perhaps rather a alchemy variant ?
I have not totally thought out how I am going to handle magic in Middle-earth yet. GURPS Magic is my next book to pick up. But reading the description of magery 0 as “magical awareness” it seams to be appropriate however magic is modeled. Elves getting the opportunity to identify that an item has properties beyond its physical structure on sight and especially on touch seams very appropriate to me – even if levels of magery beyond 0 do not end up having a place in Middle-earth. To me the magery 0 represents a attunement to some “otherness” that is the subtle by intrinsic magic of Middle-earth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celjabba
-i remenber seeing at thread about it but didnt followed it, but if someone posted a working 'dual-world-critter' package, elves back from aman qualifies : they are present in both the spirit world and middle earth, and their 'true' form is the spirit one.
I read over this thread carefully, as I wanted to model the ability faithfully, but there is not a lot of source material to go on. I chose to go with the spirit linked abilites that I did because I thought that the dual world creatures discussed there were not exactly the way it worked in Middle-earth. So I just chose abilities that would be useful in the game. I just don’t see an elf punching “nothing” and hitting a spirit in another realm. That just does not appear to “fit”

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celjabba
-they are not really unaging, they just will themselves to be it... perhaps a limitation on unaging (require a will roll, yearly) ?
Interesting. Under consideration.
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Old 12-28-2006, 12:27 PM   #19
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Default Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavynn
Could anyone offer an example language or craft talent package they think might be suitable?
Why not Language Talent [10] (B.65)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavynn
Rapid Healing [5] (B.79)
I have a vague recollection of some First Age badass elf healing from a vicious wound overnight, that sounds like Regeneration: Regular [25]. If the fastest healing elf ever has Regeneration: Regular [25], then maybe Regeneration: Slow [10] might be right for the average elf; it’s 6 times faster than the average human, 1.5 times faster than the best human. Still, I might very well be misremembering.
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Old 12-29-2006, 02:43 PM   #20
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Default Re: Lord of the Rings Elven Racial Template

Quote:
Originally Posted by NineDaysDead
I have a vague recollection of some First Age badass elf healing from a vicious wound overnight, that sounds like Regeneration: Regular [25]. If the fastest healing elf ever has Regeneration: Regular [25], then maybe Regeneration: Slow [10] might be right for the average elf; it’s 6 times faster than the average human, 1.5 times faster than the best human. Still, I might very well be misremembering.
Well, that could have been some form of healing magic or calling on the powers of the Valar or some such. I've been reading the Silmarillion again since this thread was started and there seems to be quite a few instances where the Eldar go far beyond what they should be able to do... mostly because it's deus ex machina or just because it would make a really neat story. But, then again, that's the problem with the way the story is told; as if you were sitting by a roaring fire and having someone relate the history of the world to you.
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