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Old 03-26-2019, 11:25 AM   #11
malloyd
 
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Default Re: (DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?

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Originally Posted by Greg 1 View Post
How many character points do you think a PC needs to start a career in dungeon delving?
You can go as low as you want, you just have to scale the opposition. If you are fighting unarmored 1 hit point opponents, none of whom have a skill level higher than 8 or weapons better than a stick, you can get away with poverty stricken PCs with no skills whatsoever.

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Let's assume that they can't join a party that has members of higher point value than they are.
I think that's the easy case. If everybody is low point, scaling the opposition is simple. What's hard is finding a way to make a low point PC at all relevant as part of a party of higher point value characters. I probably wouldn't try anything less than half the party average.
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Old 03-26-2019, 11:38 AM   #12
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Default Re: (DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?

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Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
I think that's the easy case. If everybody is low point, scaling the opposition is simple. What's hard is finding a way to make a low point PC at all relevant as part of a party of higher point value characters. I probably wouldn't try anything less than half the party average.
Someone who focuses on a niche that is otherwise essentially ignored can be useful despite significant point differences (if the party is all combat focused, a low point but very specialized healer would be welcome). Whether it would be fun or not is another question. That's usually the sort of thing for which you get an NPC hireling.
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Old 03-26-2019, 02:00 PM   #13
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Default Re: (DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?

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I'm a firm believer in nothing less than 250, but people do not see it my way.
I agree with this fact as well. IMO, 250 CP allow your players building characters good enough to start adventuring in most settings, without taxing their imagination (especially when confronting expectation versus reality).

Regarding CP budget and PC's classes; budget is not necessarily relevant to class because you can buy whatever fits/distinguishes your class and that's it. On the other hand, you could set some “house rules” and provide guidelines to your players and parameters for classes. A fighter and a knight could start with the same CP value and exactly the same skills, etc. but maybe in the future the fighter will have access to light armor only & DX up to 20 but the knight will have access to any kind of armor & DX up to 19, etc.

However, if you want balance among your players and also functional classes, you should look for character templates. You could throw 5 templates worth 100 CP each, and allow your players customize them using the remaining 150 CP.
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Old 03-26-2019, 06:24 PM   #14
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Default Re: (DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?

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I'm a firm believer in nothing less than 250, but people do not see it my way.
It all depends on what era of D&D one is trying to emulate. The oldest versions (OD&D, AD&D1 and 2) had characters so pathetic at low levels that a 50 point GURPS could do more. Magic-Users really sucked in those versions.

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Not really, but Anthony is not remiss in noting that that at low point levels casters really get the shaft in GURPS, where at point levels to let them thrive, non-casters often get to 'unspecialized' (as in they can stop being Johnny One-Skill).
This depends on what magic system one is using and the mana level of the world. Even at low levels a GURPS wizard will generally be in far better shape then his 1st level AD&D counterpart. And he won't be worrying about dying to ordinary house cats (the way HP and damage were figured this was very possible).

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Old 03-26-2019, 06:49 PM   #15
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Default Re: (DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?

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It all depends on what era of D&D one is trying to emulate. The oldest versions (OD&D, AD&D1 and 2) had characters so pathetic at low levels that a 50 point GURPS could do more. Magic-Users really sucked in those versions.
HM. I've really enjoyed playing first level AD&D. My favorite level. I've even had a lot of fun playing a first level MU. My one Sleep spell felt like a nuke. But I have to admit that MUs scaled badly compared to other classes. In AD&D, a 1st level fighter was just plain more useful than a 1st level MU.

I wonder what an AD&D first level fighter would be worth in GURPS cp.
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Old 03-26-2019, 06:55 PM   #16
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Default Re: (DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?

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I wonder what an AD&D first level fighter would be worth in GURPS cp.
Depends on attributes. A fighter with mediocre attributes could easily be 25 points or less (attributes: all 10. Skills: weapon of choice-12).
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Old 03-26-2019, 06:57 PM   #17
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Default Re: (DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?

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in my current campaign the PCs started at 100 points+30 points disads and that worked well enough for low level dungeon delvers. The seemed a lot like low level D&D characters in ability.

The current 4000 points does not really work that well for dungeon delving.. :)
Sounds like Dragon #99's "History of a game that failed" :-) While some of the advice there is really bad (wish twisting just rubs me the wrong way. If you can't handle the D&D version of wish then don't let it in the freaking game rather FUBARing the player over because as a GM you were a freaking idiot) there is still good information in piece.

The part titled "Do not allow a character to become more powerful than a chugging locomotive." applies in this case. Interestingly there was the Immortal Rules in the OD&D set but it really wasn't that good for the simple reason that as an immortal you can't die only be inconvenienced as you are a spirit and if powerful enough a full fledged "god"...which where the problem comes in.
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Old 03-26-2019, 08:28 PM   #18
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Default Re: (DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?

For an old school D&D feel (i.e., have a spare character waiting when the first one gets killed), you might do 75+25. Spell casters are marginal at this level, and martial artists don't really work.

I like the 150+50 level, and have run that a few times. Martial artists are marginal at this level, but most others will do okay if focused. Dungeon Fantasy 15 Henchmen is your friend for this level. I use old D&D (Keep on the Borderland) at this level.

The default 250+50 works fine.

I've run a couple 300+50 for a small group that needed niches filled. Dungeon Fantasy 3 The Next Level gives the 50 point packages to slap on.
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Old 03-27-2019, 08:51 PM   #19
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Default Re: (DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?

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Originally Posted by Greg 1 View Post
How many character points do you think a PC needs to start a career in dungeon delving?

Let's assume that they can't join a party that has members of higher point value than they are.

Does the minimum depend on what class the PC is?
My campaign started at 125 points. At that level, the party could easily beat skeletons, but had trouble with zombies. It ran from the evil cleric who had sent those zombies.

To be fair, if the cleric had even a little True Faith, it might have been able to handle the zombies better and not been so beaten up when it met the evil cleric.
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Old 03-29-2019, 06:57 PM   #20
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Default Re: (DF) Minimum Points for a Dungeon Delver?

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Originally Posted by Greg 1 View Post
HM. I've really enjoyed playing first level AD&D. My favorite level. I've even had a lot of fun playing a first level MU. My one Sleep spell felt like a nuke. But I have to admit that MUs scaled badly compared to other classes. In AD&D, a 1st level fighter was just plain more useful than a 1st level MU.
1st level MU was so pathetic that there was a Murphy's Rule on it where a ordinary housecat was cleaning itself next to a dead 1st level MU

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Originally Posted by Greg 1 View Post
I wonder what an AD&D first level fighter would be worth in GURPS cp.

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Depends on attributes. A fighter with mediocre attributes could easily be 25 points or less (attributes: all 10. Skills: weapon of choice-12).
Actually looking at the PHB for AD&D1 it is surprising much more then that as they knew (was proficient in) four weapons and was only -2 with a weapon he wasn't familiar with (PHB 37) The closest thing in GURPS to that is the 45 point version of Weapon Master.

MUs by contrast had only one weapon and a -5 to any other at 1st level.

In my D&D to GURPS I figure a Fighter is at least [14 points] by having 1 point in each of the following: Skills: Armoury/TL, Bow, Brawling, Crossbow, Melee Weapons (Axe/Mace, Flail, Knife, Polearm, Spear, Shortsword, Two handed Axe/Mace, and Two-handed sword), Shield, Throwing.

You may think that is too low but they only had an 10 on a d20 (50%) to hit something with no armor and no DEX bonuses at first level. Going through the math (assuming stats of 10 across the board) a Dodge (5.0) only works 4.6% of the time which means the attack succeeds 95.4%. 50%=x*95.4% or 50%/95.4% or 52.4% which is way closer to 10 (50%) then to skill 11 (62.5%) This is all ignoring the longer AD&D1 combat round ("a turn is 10 minutes, a round 1 minute, and a segment 6 seconds") which really tanks the skill level...even at high AD&D1 levels. It far better in D&D5e where combat is in 6 seconds segments but that is still less then stellar compared to a 1 second combat round in GURPS.

I fact in term of percentages AD&D1 1st level characters majorly suck compared to even 75 point characters if you don't factor in their special abilities (such as a Fighter having 45 point Weapon Master out of the gate)

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