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Old 11-08-2014, 03:14 PM   #41
Icelander
 
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Default Re: [MA] Silent Sentry Removal

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Originally Posted by Agemegos View Post
There do remain some incompetent oppositions: insurgent and terrorist forces, pirates etc. with grab-bag equipment, improvised doctrine and organisation, and theatrical training. No, they are not as numerous as the armies of the Axis, and neither are the specialists trained to deal with them. The skills of silent sentry removal are doubtless rare now as you say, but I imagine that they have their place in special hostage rescue.
They have their place, but assuming that you have the option of simply adding men and firepower to your assault element, swift and overwhelming is probably more likely.

A small band of PCs with awesome skills, but greatly reduced options for calling in reinforcements, is much more likely than a red ball mission for the armed forces of an entire superpower to rely on tactics that leverage personal expertise like this.
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Old 11-08-2014, 08:45 PM   #42
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Default Re: [MA] Silent Sentry Removal

And something I was envisioning that would work well is a Very Fine small knife to the brainstem. Not a hit location in GURPS, but perhaps it could be, only from behind and against an unaware target. A knife going in there means instant kill, and I doubt there would be any scream, since he's already dead. Of course, it would require high skill, but Night Vision, Telegraphic Attack and of course AoA and buying off hit location can make it possible at high skill.

Perhaps treat as a skull hit at an additional -8? to hit, from the back only (for -13, (from MA the skull is only -5 from the back) hit location techniques against the skull do count, so somebody with that bought up to the max would be rolling at -9, plus AoA and Telegraphic Attack for a net -1). Only works against unaware targets. Probably combined with some sort of leg sweep a split second later to knock his feet forward so he falls back, while you get the knife out and lower him to the ground. Hopeflully him weapon lands on him, or at least in the grass. Perhaps a Judo roll at -4 ish? Or a Karate roll, if your style specifically teaches this particular thing.

Incidentally, this is where the character with Thrown Weapon (knife) at sky high levels with hit location bought off can come in handy. Completely silent. Do AoA (Strong), with Extra Effort (strong), target the skull, and if you play that wounding modifiers multiply together (Which I did since I thought that's how RAW works, and still do as a result), and the Very Fine throwing knife from even a ST 11 guy will be doing 1d+5 damage, or 1d+3 after the skull's DR. That would make minimum damage (what matters here) is 4 x 4 x 2 =32 damage. Knockdown and stunning would be at something like -10+, and even minimum damage will likely involve at least one death check. Of course, that's assuming you can reliably hit the skull at night anyway.

Also, I figure one way to kill someone silently and without any jerking if they're asleep is a knife straight back though the eye to the midbrain. Instant kill. Of course, that's under "unconscious or helpless character attacked in obviously lethal way" rule. Possibly without waking somebody sleeping next to them?

Also, am I the only one who thinks a -5 silencer on a plain already subsonic pistol is actually more effective than silent ammunition, the -5 to hear more than making up for using the 16 yard line on High Tech's hearing distance table, particularly the closer you are.

Really, what makes sneaking get far harder from roughly the 1980's on is the recording security camera. Even if nobody notices you at the time, they can still go back and see the footage, and of course you'll be visible there, at least to some extent.
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Old 11-08-2014, 11:56 PM   #43
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Default Re: [MA] Silent Sentry Removal

I'm super sorry that sentry removal is not an important skill in a modern tactical environment, as I was really good at it as a junior Boy Scout. I could infiltrate the inner sanctum of the OpForce and rescue a hostage even if there were four sentries in the way that I had to tap on the jugular with my knife handle while I grappled them to silence.

But as with other boyish things, I've had to accept that they are less useful in the real world than they were in adolescent fantasies.

It doesn't mean that PCs can't perform them in cinematic games, but in any kind of realistic game set in the modern world, characters are usually better off mastering other things.

The way I was taught to do it pretty much matches Fairbairn. Choke Hold + Knife Stab to Neck Veins/Arteries, with or without a Neck Stab to rear Vitals (kidneys) first. Follow up with Choke Hold until he stops moving and as many Knife attacks to the Neck as you need to stop the foe from trying to make noise. You generally stab all the way inside and then draw the knife out through the Vein/Arteries on the other side, so Stab (or two) followed by Cut.
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Old 11-09-2014, 03:11 AM   #44
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Default Re: [MA] Silent Sentry Removal

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Yup. And if you're choking him, he gets quite a few seconds to try that breaking free. The AoA (Double) approach has the advantage of possibly stunning him or even putting him on negative hits in the initial attack, and being likely to do so on the second stab, in the next turn. Edit: He's also on a shock penalty for his attempt to break free.
Speaking of stunning, Surprise and Mental Stun are quite relevant:
Someone totally unprepared for combat will be in Total Surprise.
Someone on an actual patrol will probably fall under Partial Surprise, thus being Mentally Stunned at the moment of the attack, and rolling IQ each turn afterwards.
A combat veteran with Combat Reflexes will certainly not be Totally Surprised, and is unlikely to stay Mentally Stunned for more than the first turn.

Still, that extra -4 for Mental Stun might provide a good opportunity for another AoA with a (soft, quiet) Takedown without a meaningful risk of retaliation. Either that, or going a safe AoA to do more damage with the choke.
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Old 11-09-2014, 03:14 AM   #45
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Default Re: [MA] Silent Sentry Removal

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Gurkhas are kind of ridiculous.
I very much enjoyed playing one as a Madness Dossier commando.

"All sorts of weird inhuman monsters to kill? Fine!"
[ . . . ]

Utterly hardcore, in that jokingly understated way they have.
I'm certainly considering the idea of borrowing this part of characterisation for the upcoming character. That's part of the reason why I'm looking at reliable and quiet sentry removal methods.
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Old 11-09-2014, 03:27 AM   #46
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Default Re: [MA] Silent Sentry Removal

For game purposes current TL and more competent military enemies might not be very suitable for sentry removal.

Though lower TL games might work fine - and then there is also no shortage of non-military* enemies in current TL games either - paramilitary,terrorist, criminal etc.

Good to game for situations where you might eliminate Big Vinnie or Frank the Weasel from their posts from the warehouse door etc.


*or maybe some military enemies that good intel says are just plain incompetent and under-equipped enough.
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Old 11-09-2014, 03:44 AM   #47
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Default Re: [MA] Silent Sentry Removal

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Originally Posted by BraselC5048 View Post
Also, am I the only one who thinks a -5 silencer on a plain already subsonic pistol is actually more effective than silent ammunition, the -5 to hear more than making up for using the 16 yard line on High Tech's hearing distance table, particularly the closer you are.
Pistols also have lower Acc and damage, making it harder to guarantee a kill. (In my case, adding a sidearm to the character is impractical; adding a handful of subsonic ammo in addition to a silencer is more feasible.)
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Old 11-09-2014, 03:47 AM   #48
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Default Re: [MA] Silent Sentry Removal

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
I'm super sorry that sentry removal is not an important skill in a modern tactical environment, as I was really good at it as a junior Boy Scout. I could infiltrate the inner sanctum of the OpForce and rescue a hostage even if there were four sentries in the way that I had to tap on the jugular with my knife handle while I grappled them to silence.
Speaking of grappling to silence, anyone got an estimate which line on the sound volume table is occupied by a human screaming/yelling, and a human muffled but trying to scream/yell?
Edit: oh, shouting is 90 dB(A) line. Still wonder what about a muffled shout.
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Old 11-09-2014, 04:31 AM   #49
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Default Re: [MA] Silent Sentry Removal

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Originally Posted by BraselC5048 View Post
And something I was envisioning that would work well is a Very Fine small knife to the brainstem. Not a hit location in GURPS, but perhaps it could be, only from behind and against an unaware target. A knife going in there means instant kill, and I doubt there would be any scream, since he's already dead. Of course, it would require high skill, but Night Vision, Telegraphic Attack and of course AoA and buying off hit location can make it possible at high skill.

Perhaps treat as a skull hit at an additional -8? to hit, from the back only (for -13, (from MA the skull is only -5 from the back) .
You could use the eye location rules as guide since ultimately we're talking about hitting the brain without having to go through the skull.
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Old 11-09-2014, 07:38 AM   #50
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Default Re: [MA] Silent Sentry Removal

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
(I'm preparing to play at TL6, but I'm interested in discussion as applicable to all TLs, if it comes up.)
Tell us more? Or PM me if you don't want to discuss it in forum?
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