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Old 10-06-2019, 05:15 PM   #1
Gnomasz
 
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Default [DF Monsters 4: Dragons] Targeting breath attacks

I've just read through DF Monsters 4: Dragons, and I'm a bit lost about how the dragons' breath attacks should be targeted, or why so.
Firstly, clouds are supposed to appear directly in front of the dragon, so I assumed there's no attack roll, the area is always fixed in front of the figure on a hex map… But later on, under Tactics it's mentioned that the dragon could surround itself in it's breath. So is it targetable or not? Should there be a roll?
Secondly, it states that cones target a hex in front of the dragon, for +4. After reading this post earlier (and noticing the table "Attacking an Area" on p. B414 doesn't mention cones) I've thought if you take the +4, you only hit the ground, and your cone ends there. So, how is it? What if I want to hit an adventurer that doesn't stand directly before the dragon, by one hex to the right, at 7 yards distance?
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Old 10-06-2019, 06:18 PM   #2
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Default Re: [DF Monsters 4: Dragons] Targeting breath attacks

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Originally Posted by Gnomasz View Post
Firstly, clouds are supposed to appear directly in front of the dragon, so I assumed there's no attack roll, the area is always fixed in front of the figure on a hex map… But later on, under Tactics it's mentioned that the dragon could surround itself in it's breath. So is it targetable or not? Should there be a roll?
Is there a reason the dragon cannot turn it's head and breathe on it's own hexs?


Quote:
Secondly, it states that cones target a hex in front of the dragon, for +4. After reading this post earlier (and noticing the table "Attacking an Area" on p. B414 doesn't mention cones) I've thought if you take the +4, you only hit the ground, and your cone ends there. So, how is it? What if I want to hit an adventurer that doesn't stand directly before the dragon, by one hex to the right, at 7 yards distance?
Did you read the very next sentence on B414 talking about scatter? Also the long paragraphs on 413 Area And Spreading Attacks that speak specifically about cones? A cone is an area attack, therefore it gets the +4 for targeting an area.
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Old 10-07-2019, 04:10 AM   #3
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Default Re: [DF Monsters 4: Dragons] Targeting breath attacks

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Is there a reason the dragon cannot turn it's head and breathe on it's own hexs?
Without 360 Vision, it cannot face it's own hexes.
To be fair, I think it's more a criticism than a question, that the book neither specifies attack roll, nor specifically says "it's an exception, don't roll", while taking quite some word count to say that no breath ever has a cooldown, for example.


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Did you read the very next sentence on B414 talking about scatter? Also the long paragraphs on 413 Area And Spreading Attacks that speak specifically about cones? A cone is an area attack, therefore it gets the +4 for targeting an area.
Yes, I've read them.
1. Being able to scatter doesn't affect how it's aimed/targeted, just what happens when you miss. (And strangely, if the dragon misses and rolls a 4 for scatter, it breaths it's cone directly behind, I guess).
2. By RAW, there are two different area attacks: round shaped "area-effect", and "cones". The "Attacking an Area" table only specifies "area-effect" (and explosions), without "cones", and not "all area attacks".
By rules as intended, I'm lost. I understood Kromm's forum quote as "you really can't get the +4, target the creature you want to attack", but the wording in Monsters 4 seems not to care. Question is: is it an overall interpretation, or "it's DF and those are dragons" interpretation.
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Old 10-07-2019, 05:26 AM   #4
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Default Re: [DF Monsters 4: Dragons] Targeting breath attacks

There should be a perk for being able to swivel your head so you can see right backwards (but no more than 90 degrees at a time). Call it "serpentine neck." I could see some dragons having it, depending on how they're built.
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Old 10-07-2019, 04:02 PM   #5
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Default Re: [DF Monsters 4: Dragons] Targeting breath attacks

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Originally Posted by Gnomasz View Post
Without 360 Vision, it cannot face it's own hexes.
What? Where does this notion come from?

I don't have 360 Vision but I can "face" my own hexes whatever that means to you. As well it can certainly 'look down' and breathe it's area cloud under itself to 'billow' out around itself.

Quote:
By rules as intended, I'm lost. I understood Kromm's forum quote as "you really can't get the +4, target the creature you want to attack", but the wording in Monsters 4 seems not to care.
Then either just accept that Dragons play by their own rules, or to give them the effect that this ruling is looking for, give them an additional +4 to their skill.

Quote:
Question is: is it an overall interpretation, or "it's DF and those are dragons" interpretation.
Having dug into the Kromm quote... I have no idea. I'm guessing Kromm either had a senior moment and forgot his own ruling on it, or since the exact wording isn't "aims at the ground" but "aims at the hex" he's ruling that aiming at a whole hex is different... or more likely he decided to alter the the rules* to give cone breath weapon dragons a bit more punch.


* And pray he doesn't alter them further. /hisssss-pah, hisssss-pah
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Old 10-07-2019, 06:01 PM   #6
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Default Re: [DF Monsters 4: Dragons] Targeting breath attacks

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
What? Where does this notion come from?
B389 probably, though weirdly enough defending from weird angles is in part controlled by double-jointed (see B390-391). I would probably allow a double-jointed multi-hex creature to turn only its head without moving its body (this is generally not as useful as the standard rules for how this works, which is that the dragon takes a step and a facing change, and his entire body whips around).
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Old 10-07-2019, 06:35 PM   #7
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Default Re: [DF Monsters 4: Dragons] Targeting breath attacks

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B389 probably, though weirdly enough defending from weird angles is in part controlled by double-jointed (see B390-391). I would probably allow a double-jointed multi-hex creature to turn only its head without moving its body (this is generally not as useful as the standard rules for how this works, which is that the dragon takes a step and a facing change, and his entire body whips around).
Which, depending on how the dragon is described, sure. If it's built like an elephant or a rhino... but even horses can look behind themselves without needing to turn their bodies.

And I certainly would not describe a horse's neck as "serpentine". And a 'cat-like' dragon? I might not even charge it Move points to spin in place as a part of an attack.
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Old 10-08-2019, 04:10 PM   #8
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Default Re: [DF Monsters 4: Dragons] Targeting breath attacks

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What? Where does this notion come from?
Well, I worded it poorly (influenced by the description of Thrice in DFM4). It cannot attack into it's back hexes, if it abides by ranged weapon rules (p. B389). "If", being quite an important aspect.
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Old 10-08-2019, 06:07 PM   #9
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Default Re: [DF Monsters 4: Dragons] Targeting breath attacks

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And I certainly would not describe a horse's neck as "serpentine". And a 'cat-like' dragon? I might not even charge it Move points to spin in place as a part of an attack.
A horse's neck might not be as flexible as a snake, but they can turn their heads around to groom some of their body and backs with their teeth, so they're pretty flexible. Fortunately they generally can't bend tightly enough to bite their riders (so instead they scrape them off using low-hanging branches...).
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