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Old 05-09-2017, 06:31 PM   #11
sir_pudding
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Default Re: [High-Tech] Reflex Sight + Scope: "can be used, but not with magnifying scopes"

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
I'd argue that in that case, it doesn't work as a collimating or reflex sight while magnified.
The ACOG/RCO is a 4x magnification red chevron BAC optic. It can't be used without magnification at all as it is a single unit. Clearly magnification and BAC aren't exclusive.
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Old 05-09-2017, 06:45 PM   #12
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Default Re: [High-Tech] Reflex Sight + Scope: "can be used, but not with magnifying scopes"

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
The ACOG/RCO is a 4x magnification red chevron BAC optic. It can't be used without magnification at all as it is a single unit. Clearly magnification and BAC aren't exclusive.
In Tactical Shooting, Hans seems to give the 4x ACOG +2 Acc, but no bonus to Guns. The S&B optic with adjustable magnification gets both, by contrast, but the implication is that you can switch between those two modes, not use them both at once.

I think the issue is whether the 4x ACOG is better at medium and longer engagement ranges than a decent 4x optic without a red dot, but with a mil-dot or something equivalent.

Is it worth another +1 bonus?
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Old 05-09-2017, 07:12 PM   #13
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Default Re: [High-Tech] Reflex Sight + Scope: "can be used, but not with magnifying scopes"

I don't see any reason to think a red dot sight would give a bonus cumulative with scope bonuses. If you're using a scope it's going to have markings that provide you with the same information that the red dot would, when you're looking through it.
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Old 05-09-2017, 07:24 PM   #14
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Default Re: [High-Tech] Reflex Sight + Scope: "can be used, but not with magnifying scopes"

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
I don't see any reason to think a red dot sight would give a bonus cumulative with scope bonuses. If you're using a scope it's going to have markings that provide you with the same information that the red dot would, when you're looking through it.
Yeah, that you can aim with both eyes open isn't something GURPS actually cares about, generally.
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Old 05-10-2017, 02:42 AM   #15
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Default Re: [High-Tech] Reflex Sight + Scope: "can be used, but not with magnifying scopes"

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Yeah, that you can aim with both eyes open isn't something GURPS actually cares about, generally.
Actually tactical shooting differentiates between scopes and reflex sights as it comes to vision. No Peripheral Vision for iron sights and reflex/collimating sights and Tunnel Vision for optics like scopes. So something that allows the other eye to be open should then likely also fall into the No Peripheral Vision category as opposed to the Tunnel Vision.
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Old 05-10-2017, 07:18 AM   #16
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Default Re: [High-Tech] Reflex Sight + Scope: "can be used, but not with magnifying scopes"

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Greetings, all!

I noticed that Reflex Sight (HT156) says that it cannot be used with a magnifying scope.
And yet when I asked some gun nuts, they said that no, there's no reason why the two can't be combined, and showed some pictures.
Of my own searches, I stumbled on this, which is even more illustrative.

So what gives? Is this an error that slipped through editing will never be errated, or is there some other reason why High-Tech says this?
This is not an error.

What your "gun nuts" showed to you is not a scope. It is a magnifier. I use the same setup on one of my rifles, an EOTech XPS2 reflex sight and an EOTech 3.75x magnifier. The difference between a "scope" (telescopic sight) as listed in High-Tech is that a scope has a reticle and a magnifier has not. You cannot use the latter without the reflex sight, as you have no reticle.

Even if a munchkin insists that a "magnifying scope" can include a magnifier -- which I would call technically incorrect, but heh -- there was no such thing available when I wrote that passage in 2006. The EOTech magnifier was introduced in 2007, and to my knowledge was the first such device.

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Last edited by HANS; 05-10-2017 at 07:32 AM.
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Old 05-10-2017, 07:19 AM   #17
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Default Re: [High-Tech] Reflex Sight + Scope: "can be used, but not with magnifying scopes"

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
In real life, you can fit a Docter or another type of small red dot sight to the top or side of a larger optic.
These are not in-line. You are using one or the other.

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Old 05-10-2017, 07:31 AM   #18
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Default Re: [High-Tech] Reflex Sight + Scope: "can be used, but not with magnifying scopes"

Magnification (Acc bonus) and improved target acquistion (red dot and open eyes for +1 to Guns) are mutually exclusive. Once the magnifier is put in place, the combination works as a scope, more or less (at least enough for game purposes), with the red dot taking the place of the crosshairs or whatever in a conventional scope. In other words, either +X Acc or +1 Guns, never both at the same time.

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Old 05-10-2017, 07:44 AM   #19
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Default Re: [High-Tech] Reflex Sight + Scope: "can be used, but not with magnifying scopes"

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Originally Posted by HANS View Post
This is not an error.

What your "gun nuts" showed to you is not a scope. It is a magnifier. I use the same setup on one of my rifles, an EOTech XPS2 reflex sight and with an EOTech 3.75x magnifier. The difference between a "scope" (telescopic sight) as listed in High-Tech is that a scope has a reticle and a magnifier has not. You cannot use the latter without the reflex sight, as you have no reticle.

Even if a munchkin insists that a "magnifying scope" can include a magnifier -- which I would call technically incorrect, but heh -- there was no such thing available when I wrote that passage in 2006. The EOTech magnifier was introduced in 2007, and to my knowledge was the first such device.

Cheers

HANS
Hmmm. I guess the ambiguity of the term 'scope' (both in my usage, and in the colloquial usage I encountered) is part of the reason of the confusion.
So I am now wondering: based on current knowledge what are the criteria for compatible or incompatible features (not necessarily something currently existing, but rather doable in principle)?

I know a targeting LASER and a scope (with magnification) are not considered incompatible.
Is there something that makes the Red Dot bonus incompatible with the magnification bonus on the EOTech-like systems (both current and next-TL)? If yes, what sets them apart? (I don't mean during hip-shooting when sights are too far from the eye line.)

Note: I'm mostly interested in variable-magnification devices, not fixed-mag ones.
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Old 05-10-2017, 07:50 AM   #20
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Default Re: [High-Tech] Reflex Sight + Scope: "can be used, but not with magnifying scopes"

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Is there something that makes the Red Dot bonus incompatible with the magnification bonus on the EOTech-like systems (both current and next-TL)? If yes, what sets them apart?
I have already mentioned it: the fact that you can keep both eyes open with a red dot. This vastly improves sight acquisition and situational awareness. This is the underlying reason for the +1 to Guns. As soon as you add magnification, you get tunnel vision and can only sight with the one eye to the tube. This allows you to take advantage of the magnification, but robs you of the fast acquisition.

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