Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-25-2014, 04:51 PM   #11
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Re: [Loadout] Delta Operator on an intelligence op

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen View Post
If he's driving a scooter, it might be possible to make a small hidden compartment in it, for some of his bug-out-kit.
Theoretically, but I imagine that a back-pack or satchel might be common enough not to be noticed all that much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen View Post
Could he have some kind of machine pistol or PDW-like thingie in his satchel? Even if he could, would he want to?
The suggestion of an MP7 PDW has been advanced. A rifle is probably too bulky for him to have had one during surveillance ops, but it's not like obtaining a PDW, carbine or rifle is the problem for the PCs anyway. Even a shiny new HK416 is like a $1,400, which is easily affordable.

Mainly, the player asked if he could steal some of the super-expensive Delta 'spy stuff' that he'd been using, because his $20,000 budget didn't cover even a fraction of what he'd want.

Besides, the gear in High-Tech is at least five years out of date at the time the game is set. :)

Smartphones and tablets have advanced enormously in the meantime and it only makes sense that at least some sort of surveillance equipment might have applications that weren't possible in 2006-2007.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen View Post
A smoke grenade or two might be useful in the right kind of situation.
Could be.
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!

Last edited by Icelander; 08-25-2014 at 04:56 PM.
Icelander is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2014, 04:51 PM   #12
sir_pudding
Wielder of Smart Pants
 
sir_pudding's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ventura CA
Default Re: [Loadout] Delta Operator on an intelligence op

Oh, and cell phones are ubiquitous in Iraq. Everybody has them and many people carry several (one for work, one for family, one for your buddies, one for your mistress). However Coalition forces as we as some elite Iraqi military and police and well equipped contractors roll around with area jammers so service can be weird, I imagine. I never tried to use my phone in Iraq, because I am not an idiot.
sir_pudding is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2014, 04:53 PM   #13
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Re: [Loadout] Delta Operator on an intelligence op

Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
You do realize that I was USMC Infantry and about as far from Delta force budgets as you can get and still be in NATO, right?

Even if I saw SOCOM guys in Iraq, I couldn't tell you anything about them, legally anyway.
There are a lot of forumites who read public sources and try to stat the newest things up in GURPS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
The AN/PVS-14 was pretty ubiquitous in US service at that time, but I think SO guys had better stuff, at least according to what I have read in public sources.
I remember seeing new NVGs and other electronics in a lot of Pyramid articles, because new stuff comes out all the time and High-Tech could only include stuff that was already in open sources at the time of publication.

But there's a lot of Pyramids and I don't own them all. I checked Tactical Shooting, but that mostly has weapon accessories, quite understandably.
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Icelander is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2014, 05:18 PM   #14
Peter Knutsen
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Europe
Default Re: [Loadout] Delta Operator on an intelligence op

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Theoretically, but I imagine that a back-pack or satchel might be common enough not to be noticed all that much.
I meant a hidden compartment in the scooter, in addition to a satchel or backpack.

As for gear in general, it's Delta. I'm pretty sure they're the top tier in terms of being able to get permission to procure and use non-standard gear. The only reason they might not use the best night vision gear there is would probably be because "the best" isn't the best according to their standards, due to lacking Ruggedized or for some other reason isn't fit for field use during "adventuring conditions". With firearms (and grenade launchers?) there might be some pressure for each Delta trooper not to go his own unique way in terms of caliber, just so they can easily swap rounds on an as-needed basis, but beyond that I imagine it's very relaxed.

As Sir Pudding points to, there are two radically different philosophies:
The US Marine Corps (and as far as I know, the US Army is similar - I'd expect it to be) is about lots of guys individually weak but strong in numbers. Delta and similar special ops groups (each with their own areas of expertize, as defined in GURPS Special Ops) is about a small number of guys each very powerful. Some of that difference comes from more thorough training (training time, ratio of instructors to students, quality of instructors, budgeting for expendables such as ammo, and of course selection of recruits who have the potential for such training) and some of it comes from loadout budget.

Both philosophies work. That's obvious to see. But they're different, and in theory that difference is interesting, although in gaming practice the only real potential is probably in a small group of well-equipped highly trained player characters facing up against a large group of poorly equipped and poorly tained NPCs.
Peter Knutsen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2014, 05:26 PM   #15
Peter Knutsen
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Europe
Default Re: [Loadout] Delta Operator on an intelligence op

Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Oh, and cell phones are ubiquitous in Iraq. Everybody has them and many people carry several (one for work, one for family, one for your buddies, one for your mistress). However Coalition forces as we as some elite Iraqi military and police and well equipped contractors roll around with area jammers so service can be weird, I imagine. I never tried to use my phone in Iraq, because I am not an idiot.
How many use sattelite phones?

In 2011 I think most people in Iraq would use "feature phone" type cell phones. Not smart phones, but not the dumb antique turn-of-the-millenium "Nokia" types either, and quite likely with a limited selection of free-to-download apps or proto-apps.

I don't know about Iraq, but I've read that in sub-Saharan Africa, a lot of what we'd do with web browsing (on a computer or smartphone) is instead done via the SMS protocol, texting, that is sending formal language requests to services and getting automated replies back, to check the current regional or town-specific prices of bulk crops, staple foods, fuel, probably weather forecasts too. I could imagine that being the case in Iraq too. It struck me more as a lower-tech/3rd world country thing than as something that's particular to Africa.
Peter Knutsen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2014, 05:33 PM   #16
cosmicfish
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Default Re: [Loadout] Delta Operator on an intelligence op

Your Delta operator is going to have at least two sets of gear.

The first is going to match his cover, with as few deviations or exceptions as possible. He will probably dress native and use whatever native equipment he can, including guns - an AK is about a thousand times more likely than an MP7, but a common, non-American type of pistol is much more likely still. Besides anything mission critical he will probably only carry a discrete radio - communications is always mission critical, anything else has to justify the risk to the cover.

The second set is going to be as overt as he wants to get, and is probably going to be high end but still fairly generic - perhaps a German rifle, French NV gear, etc. If caught, he wants to appear as a mercenary or such rather than an American operative. He'll keep this gear concealed at his base of operations or (better still) somewhere else entirely.
cosmicfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2014, 05:53 PM   #17
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Re: [Loadout] Delta Operator on an intelligence op

Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
Your Delta operator is going to have at least two sets of gear.

The first is going to match his cover, with as few deviations or exceptions as possible. He will probably dress native and use whatever native equipment he can, including guns - an AK is about a thousand times more likely than an MP7, but a common, non-American type of pistol is much more likely still. Besides anything mission critical he will probably only carry a discrete radio - communications is always mission critical, anything else has to justify the risk to the cover.
This is for operations where he has no cover at all and where having any kind of visible weapon would pose a risk. It's essentially for patrolling while clad in local wear, without any specific cover.

In high-risk areas, police and security services doing that kind of work do carry concealed firearms for self-defence. An MP7 may be worth carrying because it is better than a pistol and can really be concealed in a small back-pack or satchel, whereas a Bulgarian Arsenal AK cannot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
The second set is going to be as overt as he wants to get, and is probably going to be high end but still fairly generic - perhaps a German rifle, French NV gear, etc. If caught, he wants to appear as a mercenary or such rather than an American operative. He'll keep this gear concealed at his base of operations or (better still) somewhere else entirely.
His base of operations used to be LSA Anaconda, but during 2011, I guess it's whatever US base is still open a few months before the last of the forces officially leave.

The kind of work he'd be doing wouldn't really be all that unofficial. He'd have been working intelligence patrols with Iraqi Federal Police commandos or Iraqi special forces.

No chance of being disavowed if caught. He can carry US gear if he wants, just so long as whatever he takes on undercover patrols isn't something that makes him stand out from locals.
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Icelander is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2014, 06:31 PM   #18
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Re: [Loadout] Delta Operator on an intelligence op

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen View Post
As for gear in general, it's Delta. I'm pretty sure they're the top tier in terms of being able to get permission to procure and use non-standard gear. The only reason they might not use the best night vision gear there is would probably be because "the best" isn't the best according to their standards, due to lacking Ruggedized or for some other reason isn't fit for field use during "adventuring conditions".
Yes, but what is the best today?

The equipment I'd personally pick for almost any regular task of extended duration today varies substantially from that of 2006, because of smartphone, tablet and reader technology which has had enormous effects on nearly any TL dependant task.

I don't really know if any of it has trickled into security, military or intelligence work, but I rather suspect that it has.

I'm genuinely interested in knowing if there is practical TL8 gear that offers improvement on what I can find in High-Tech. Kennth Peters has an article in Pyramid #57 where I found some improved NVGs, body armour, target designators and rangefinders.

Is there any more stuff like that in other Pyramids, i.e. updates of equipment stats due to continuing development in the real world?
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Icelander is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2014, 09:49 PM   #19
cosmicfish
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Default Re: [Loadout] Delta Operator on an intelligence op

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
This is for operations where he has no cover at all and where having any kind of visible weapon would pose a risk. It's essentially for patrolling while clad in local wear, without any specific cover.
"Cover" does not just refer to a specific identity - going in dressed as a local is still cover, it is just a very weak one. Ideally, you want to pick a cover that allows you to do what you need to do, and if you want to carry a gun, pick a cover that allows you to do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
In high-risk areas, police and security services doing that kind of work do carry concealed firearms for self-defence. An MP7 may be worth carrying because it is better than a pistol and can really be concealed in a small back-pack or satchel, whereas a Bulgarian Arsenal AK cannot.
But that MP7, once used, will immediately mark him as a high-level operative - anyone in that area might carry a pistol (or even an AK, if they do security work or such), but someone carrying an expensive and unusual weapon with hard-to-acquire ammunition is going to draw attention. As soon as he uses that MP7 and leaves witnesses, his cover is gone, and he is exposed as some foreign operative.

Besides, as a Delta he will have been trained on AK's and such and should also be more than capable of killing an enemy by pistol and then taking his rifle. Still, if he wanted to have a disguise AND a larger weapon, I would consider having a car or cart or such that would allow him to conceal an AK. If he pulls that then it is likely he will be perceived as Al Qaeda or Iraqi Intelligence or a local criminal or something of that nature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
The kind of work he'd be doing wouldn't really be all that unofficial. He'd have been working intelligence patrols with Iraqi Federal Police commandos or Iraqi special forces.

No chance of being disavowed if caught. He can carry US gear if he wants, just so long as whatever he takes on undercover patrols isn't something that makes him stand out from locals.
There are three basic scenarios I can see here:

1) He is trying to look like an ordinary Iraqi. This is what I was going with the whole time, and believe it or not, if he starts firing an MP7 he is likely to be remembered and unable to resume any similar guise without moving to a new area.

2) He is trying to look like Iraqi military. So equip him like Iraqi military.

3) He is trying to look like a foreign mercenary or US military or whatever. Give him whatever you want, but it wastes the advantage of his appearance.
cosmicfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2014, 09:55 PM   #20
cosmicfish
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Default Re: [Loadout] Delta Operator on an intelligence op

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Yes, but what is the best today?

The equipment I'd personally pick for almost any regular task of extended duration today varies substantially from that of 2006, because of smartphone, tablet and reader technology which has had enormous effects on nearly any TL dependant task.

I don't really know if any of it has trickled into security, military or intelligence work, but I rather suspect that it has.

I'm genuinely interested in knowing if there is practical TL8 gear that offers improvement on what I can find in High-Tech. Kennth Peters has an article in Pyramid #57 where I found some improved NVGs, body armour, target designators and rangefinders.

Is there any more stuff like that in other Pyramids, i.e. updates of equipment stats due to continuing development in the real world?
You can tweak any gear you want - make it more expensive or bulky or fragile in return for improved performance and higher cost. But remember that unusual, high-performance gear is hard to disguise, hard to maintain, and often of limited use. That is why Delta spends more effort on training snipers than in developing better sniper rifles - the former is much more useful to them than being dependent on marginally better but highly distinctive weaponry.

The bad guys aren't (or shouldn't be) stupid. They are looking for spies, Americans in particular, and they have a lot more eyes than guns and they communicate pretty well. Concealing your identity is a genuinely difficult task, and handicapping yourself with distinctive gear is just asking to be shot in a back alley by someone who isn't even sure you are an American spy but doesn't want to take the chance of being wrong.
cosmicfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
equipment, high-tech, loadouts, modern firepower, special ops

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:33 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.