08-09-2011, 06:04 PM | #31 | ||
Wielder of Smart Pants
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ventura CA
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Re: Need help with CAG/Delta/SOFD-D Operator
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08-09-2011, 06:27 PM | #32 | |
Join Date: Mar 2010
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Re: Need help with CAG/Delta/SOFD-D Operator
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There is not normally any desirable reason to fire from the hip, but I know that SEALs are specifically trained (in the event of a primary weapon failure) to point their pistol towards the enemy as soon as possible upon clearing the holster, and to fire the weapon even as they are still bringing it up to an aimed firing position. |
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08-09-2011, 07:06 PM | #33 | ||
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Re: Need help with CAG/Delta/SOFD-D Operator
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Also, this wasn't day 1 of training either. This was after Delta Selection, and the previous months were spent all day putting rounds down range. One more thing I'd like to mention here. The trainees were supposed to represent hostages who didn't know what was about to happen. That's the point. You cannot count on the fact that hostages in real life will sit still and not move/not react to flash-bangs and room clearing. You've got to be able to kill the tangos and not hit the hostages, even if they jump all over the place, freaking out. For what it's worth, if the instructors really did clear the room in 3 - 6 seconds right after a flash-bang in an enclosed room, I would bet that normal people wouldn't have the time or the wherewithal to do much of anything other than sit still, or maybe put their heads between their legs. Quote:
This is the reason I posted this request on the forums in the first place. So the community could help me understand how to express this sort of scenario in GURPS mechanics. |
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08-09-2011, 07:51 PM | #34 |
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Lakeville, MN
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Re: Need help with CAG/Delta/SOFD-D Operator
We can probably all agree on certain things:
The SFOD-D guys were almost certainly using Sighted Shooting (Tactical Shooting, p. 13). Thus, they were doing AoA (Determined), possibly Braced. They probably didn't Aim. Their movement through the room was PROBABLY one or two seconds worth of half-moves to enter, and then Step and AoA if they need to proceed through an initial point. Non-combat bonuses (Tactical Shooting, p. 9) doesn't give much slack here. "No risk to self" doesn't qualify; others are shooting very near you. "No risk to others" likewise, due to presence of friendlies, even stationary ones. Range and speed are not precisely known (for the full +3), but the operators probably know the bracket they're in (0 yds to the length of the room, well known), and they know unmoving target. Probably +1 or +2 here. "No political or military stake in the outcome" may or may not qualify, I'd guess not. The room is not an outdoor range (for +1), but not a perfectly controlled indoor one either, and the random setup of the room probably moves it closer to +1 or +2; I doubt the friendly exercise has things on the floor to purposefully trip up a good guy. Let's say bonuses could range from +2 to +5 even for this exercise, and we'll round down and say +3. If we assume fully bought off TA (Vitals) or TA (Face) that's Vitals at -2 or Face at -3. Let's give full credit for AoA (Determined) and Braced. So, if we assume a net of 15 skill Bonuses: +3 AoA and Braced: +2 Range -2 Target -2 (Vitals) or -3 (Face) Want two hits: -3 for Rcl No penalties for CQB. Looks like we can get by with an 18 on this if we assume that +3 total non-combat bonus. Eliminating this and being able to do this in "true" combat would require Guns (Rifle)-21 . . . which again, I don't doubt. That would mean that the shoot-house exercise is something that these guys could absorb a couple of "whoa!, that's different!" penalties and still have a near-zero rate of friendly fire. Factor in Luck (as in, they make their own) and a few rerolls later, these guys can do this repeatedly and assuredly.
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08-10-2011, 04:19 AM | #35 | |
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Re: Need help with CAG/Delta/SOFD-D Operator
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Thanks Doug. That is exactly what I was looking for. So for an SOFD-D Assaulter who has been in the unit for 5+ years, a Guns skill of 21 is not cinematic or out of scope for a realistic game, then. I do have a follow-up question, though. Since TS defines "Sighted shooting" as being limited to AoA, when would a trained CQB Operator (Delta, DEVGRU, GSG-9, SAS, etc.) actually make use of the CBQ Technique? Does the CBQ technique really represent moving at a run and firing from the hip? It seems odd that a game technique called "Close Quarters Battle" would not likely be used or trained by any of the units who spend more time than anyone else training and fighting at close quarters. |
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08-10-2011, 06:36 AM | #36 | |
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Seoul, Korea
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Re: Need help with CAG/Delta/SOFD-D Operator
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08-10-2011, 07:08 AM | #37 | |
Join Date: Aug 2005
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Re: Need help with CAG/Delta/SOFD-D Operator
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08-10-2011, 07:47 AM | #38 |
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Seoul, Korea
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Re: Need help with CAG/Delta/SOFD-D Operator
So CQB is about after the flashbang wears off?
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08-11-2011, 04:17 AM | #39 | |
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Re: Need help with CAG/Delta/SOFD-D Operator
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So basically, as long as you only need to move 1/2 your base move or less, you use AoA(Det) and don't get any penalties for shooting AND moving. It's only when you need to move more than 1/2 you base move that HAVE to take a MandA maneuver, and that's where you take the -2 or Bulk penalty, and that's the only maneuver where the CQB technique comes into play. Or is there something mechanically that I am missing with the rules? Last edited by TheOneRonin; 08-11-2011 at 04:27 AM. |
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08-11-2011, 10:28 AM | #40 | |
Join Date: Aug 2005
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Re: Need help with CAG/Delta/SOFD-D Operator
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