[Superiors/heretical] Invocation mods for Israfel?

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by Andygal

note that the +6 modifier is for the ORIGINAL copy of the sheet music, the first copy ever made by a world famous composer, I think an ORIGINAL copy of one of Beethoven or Mozart's pieces ought to be worth the +6.

Ah. Yes, that argument I can see .... especially if someone were to perform directly from that copy.

[Orlin]

I'm with Andygal, on this one. I think a journal of sheet music handwritten by Beethoven or Mozart would certainly be worth the +6.

[ladyarcana55]

Originally Posted by Orlin

I'm with Andygal, on this one. I think a journal of sheet music handwritten by Beethoven or Mozart would certainly be worth the +6.

Only a +6? I dunno, I think that's low-balling it considering how rare those are nowadays.

But if it was the original sheet music for a modern day (within the last 50 years give or take) I can see a +6, but the older it is the higher the bonus I would imagine since it would, theoretically, be harder to find. I would propose +1 for every 25 years past the 50 year mark.

[robkelk]

As long as we're discussing invocation modifiers, anybody want to suggest some for the Archangel of Song? (Music and Song are somewhat related, after all...)

Here's what I've got so far:
+1 A human singing for the joy of it, without being asked to perform.
+2 A choir performing in front of an audience.
+3 _____
+4 _____
+5 _____
+6 The first performance of a Song newly-discovered in the Symphony.

(Yes, that goes along with Rocket Man's view on a +6 modifier...)

[Orlin]

Only a +6? I dunno, I think that's low-balling it considering how rare those are nowadays.

I don't know about this. In the interest of keeping invocations consistent, I'd vote to keep it a +6. Nothing ever goes higher than a +6, after all.

If you think about it, though, that +6 could easily be a +10. If you were to get your hands on a copy of the a journal that contained the original composition for Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata, you might be able to wrack up the bonus for having the original sheet of music for a famous composer and a musical composition known to at least 1,000 people -- although I'm not sure about that.

I suppose it's a relevant question...if you have a single object that fits multiple criteria for an invocation, do you go with the highest or take both of the bonuses?

As long as we're discussing invocation modifiers, anybody want to suggest some for the Archangel of Song? (Music and Song are somewhat related, after all...)

Sure, I'm in a good mood.

Here's what I've got so far:
+1 A human singing for the joy of it, without being asked to perform.
+2 A choir performing in front of an audience.
+3 _____
+4 _____
+5 _____
+6 The first performance of a Song newly-discovered in the Symphony.

These are, IMHO, far too stringent. A +1 modifier is something you should be able to pick up at a grocery store (typical +1 modifiers include, "a book of fairy tales," "a paintbrush," "stealing a newspaper," etc.

A +6 modifier is generally something that, while generally very rare or unique, is usually tangible. Even when it's something abstract, it's never celestial -- being engaged in a fight to the death is a great invocation modifier for Gabriel, but fair to say that this happens often enough that she could be summoned. The beads that bought Manhattan are unique, but you could keep using them if you had them...until the Superior asks for them back.

A newly discovered Song is unique once and only once, and it directly conflicts with a great many games on account of it being something that most GM's don't even allow. Maybe you should try taking your interpretation of the Word down a few notches? I know Israfel supposedly knows every Song due to her Word, but you might want to think of her as the Archangel of literal Song and work from there?

A song that everyone knows____________________________________+1
On the stage of a concert hall___________________________________+2
A group of talented singers performing in concert___________________+3
The instrument of a famous musician_____________________________+4
The burial site of a world-renowned songwriter_____________________+5
Fifty-thousand people listening to the same song and loving it________+6

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by Orlin

I suppose it's a relevant question...if you have a single object that fits multiple criteria for an invocation, do you go with the highest or take both of the bonuses?

Page 109 of the Core Rules says "Unless specified otherwise, only one of these special modifiers can be used per attempt!" I can't see any player going with any but the highest modifier, since he's only allowed one.

Originally Posted by Orlin

A +6 modifier is generally something that, while generally very rare or unique, is usually tangible. Even when it's something abstract, it's never celestial -- being engaged in a fight to the death is a great invocation modifier for Gabriel, but fair to say that this happens often enough that she could be summoned. The beads that bought Manhattan are unique, but you could keep using them if you had them...until the Superior asks for them back.

Some other +6 modifiers are just as difficult to come across - you can only "Clear the name of a Nazi war criminal" once as well, and it's highly unlikely that "Something that would make Kobal laugh" once would make him laugh a second time.

(There's no rhyme or reason to the difficulty of the canonical modifiers, IMHO. It's much, much easier to come into possession of "A nuclear bomb" than "The Grand Unification Theory", yet these are the +6 Invocation modifiers of the two technologist Superiors.)

Originally Posted by Orlin

A newly discovered Song is unique once and only once, and it directly conflicts with a great many games on account of it being something that most GM's don't even allow. Maybe you should try taking your interpretation of the Word down a few notches?

In the case of Song, it isn't the Word, it's the Choir. Even Dominic isn't sure whether the Grigori Archangel still exists - if it was (relatively) easy for Outcasts to blow all their Essence and Invoke the Archangel of Song to ask to be taken into her service, then a Triad would have noticed at least one of the attempts by now...

Originally Posted by Orlin

I know Israfel supposedly knows every Song due to her Word,

I don't have my copy of Liber Canticorum with me, but I believe it mentions one of Israfel's joys is to find new Songs in the Symphony.

Originally Posted by Orlin

but you might want to think of her as the Archangel of literal Song and work from there?

A song that everyone knows____________________________________+1
On the stage of a concert hall___________________________________+2
A group of talented singers performing in concert___________________+3
The instrument of a famous musician_____________________________+4
The burial site of a world-renowned songwriter_____________________+5
Fifty-thousand people listening to the same song and loving it________+6

Some good ideas there, which I might use (although "The instrument of a famous musician" fits Music better than it does Song)... Thanks!