In Nomine, minus the angels

[Jason]

I'm going to be running a new campaign this summer, and I was hoping I might get your input about how to deal with some of the inevitable holes in the logic of the game world based on how I'm modifying the setting.

In short, how would the world --*and the War -- be different without angels?

It's not that angels ceased to exist, but that they aren't ever seen. All the PCs (and their players) will know for sure is that the last widely visible evidence of angelic intervention was Raphael's sacrifice to destroy Legion some hundreds of years ago, and even that was a rare appearance confirming that angels weren't just a myth to scare young demonlings.

Before Uriel's Purity Crusade, angels and demons alike frequented the corporeal realm. One day, however, the Crusade abruptly ceased, and Heaven went silent. If any angels have Fallen since that day, they have been dealt with swiftly by Judgment; new demons are created, not recruited. (I don't have my timeline handy, but it's possible that the one major exception to this is Alaemon, Prince of Secrets. Of course, nobody's really sure they can buy the story that he's a former angel anyway, and if he does have secret intel about recent events in Heaven, he's not sharing.) It's generally assumed that Uriel must have been recalled by the Seraphim Council or by God Himself to cease his Crusade, and that he probably got replaced as Commander of the Armies of the Host. Some further theorize that he may have been replaced by Khalid, whose mandate to protect humans' Faith might now be a standing order for all of Heaven.

Without the angels to fight with openly, Hell has grown pretty complacent. It's now very much mired in internal politics and squabbles over whether to just destroy the world already or keep it around for to be the demons' playground. Princes now spend as much of their time on Earth trying to undermine other Princes as they ever did trying to strike at Heaven.

So, some questions that arise from this for me:

Why can't demons just cause as much Symphonic disturbance and general mayhem on Earth as they like?

This is the easiest question for me, as it's pretty much the same stuff mentioned in the rule books: They don't want to screw up Tethers, and they don't want to alert humans to their existence, inviting humans to team up on them. (Demons always outnumbered angels, but I'm ruling that humans now outnumber both.)

Plus, it's not as if Hell is unopposed on Earth. You don't need angels for there to be Soldiers, as that 6th Force can happen naturally (and who's to say that Soldiers don't have a sly angelic patron to grant attunements without their knowledge?). The PCs' major foil will be a group of Soldiers of God in the city who operate out of the Masonic Temple near City Hall. The Soldiers don't really make any distinction between "good guy" demons/spirits and "bad guy" kinds, and are generally pretty ruthless.

Why can't demons just run free in the Marches, terrorizing dreamers?

This question is a little trickier for me. My current plan is to say that demons and spirits who screw around in mortal dreams sometimes just disappear, and never seem to have any indication that anything is coming for them. The going theory is that Servitors of Dreams must all have the Malakim of Dreams attunement, and are generally pretty well covering the Vale in unstoppable instant-kill squads. If angels do initiate attacks, they're probably celestial combat.

How concerned is Hell about Renegades

I still want Asmodeus to be sending hunters after Renegades, but might this be less of a concern when demons have no other side to defect to? I suppose Asmodeus might still be concerned with this if he's being used by Lucifer (along with Malphas) to make sure other Princes don't get too big for their britches, though...

Mind you, I do want the Game to still exist no matter what, if for no other reason than to have a "corrupt cop" character who appears whenever he wants to blackmail or extort the PCs for something.

How do I make an angel-free group into the good guys?

The PCs will be a close-knit group of humans, ethereal spirits, and low-level demons who hang out at Harry's Occult Shop in Philadelphia (so chosen by me for a totally awesome mural that made me want to get back to running In Nomine for pretty much the entire time I lived in Philly). They'll get cues for missions from a grandfatherly sort of patron character who owns the shop, and may be propositioned to do "freelance" work from some of the less absolutely terrible Princes.

I want the PCs to be "the good guys" -- even the demons -- so I'm allowing some modifications for demon mechanics. (For instance, Pachadim will be allowed to have non-predatory relationships with others as long as they've already tried and failed to prey on their insecurities three times.)

I think I'm going to disallow Shedim for PCs, and say that they're rare in the game world as a whole. My game-world-logic explanation is that in a world with only limited and invisible angelic interference and a version of the Game that is less concerned with hunting down Renegades, Shedim are just too hard to keep in control for it to be worth sending many of them up to Earth.

I am considering mandating the the demons be Renegades to free them from some of the more evil-leaning dissonance conditions (and also so that it would be almost equally bad for them to get killed as anyone else in the party). I do think it would be cool to make use of all these Superiors supplements I bought, though, so I'm open to suggestions of how to make good-guy Servitors without completely changing what comes in those supplements.

What will the relationship be between Beleth and ethereals?

Some pantheons and spirits might have pledged oaths of fealty in exchange for protection during the Purity Crusade, but now that angels' continued existence is somewhat in doubt by plenty in the Marches, should ethereals be less associated with Nightmares than in the canon setting?

What role with Lilith play?

Lilith may have originally sided with Hell just to make sure Heaven stayed off her back. She has been portrayed as less demonic than the rest of Hell's royalty, though, and with good reason. What's her game now?

What other questions am I missing?

There are probably issues of logic I'm missing that will invite plot holes. Please do offer any that occur to you!

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by Jason

How concerned is Hell about Renegades

I still want Asmodeus to be sending hunters after Renegades, but might this be less of a concern when demons have no other side to defect to? I suppose Asmodeus might still be concerned with this if he's being used by Lucifer (along with Malphas) to make sure other Princes don't get too big for their britches, though...

Mind you, I do want the Game to still exist no matter what, if for no other reason than to have a "corrupt cop" character who appears whenever he wants to blackmail or extort the PCs for something.

Three possibilities come to mind.

1) Escaped Renegades on Earth represent a threat to Hell's power base. Who's going to play by the rules if they can just head for the high cotton? Even if what they want is just to grab their own piece of the action and disappear, over time those expatriates could become a powerful and dangerous faction in the War if not shut down.

2) A Renegade could well flee to the Marches. The pagan gods haven't given up their campaign to return to their former glory, and the chance to have some celestial might that isn't beholden to Lucifer could be too good to pass up. If nothing else, a captured Renegade is a potential information leak to the Ethereals -- can't have that! (Unless, of course, you fake a couple of Renegades with planted information to discredit any escapees.)

3) As Khalid knows well, just because you don't see an angel doesn't mean he's not there. There could be a quiet Underground Railroad (the Last Train To Glory?)that carefully identifies potential Redemption candidates and isolates them. But there are no round trips on this train -- the demon either Redeems and ascends to Heaven, or else is "made to disappear"; no witnesses will be left behind to tell of Heaven's activity. One way or the other, the Renegade simply falls off the face of the Earth, feeding Azzie's paranoid fantasies even further ...

[Jason]

Oh, great ideas. Part of the reason I wanted to remove angels from the equation was that I wanted to remove any notion from my players' minds that they would come up as redemption candidates, but I especially like the idea that the "disappearances" could be redemptions just as easily as executions.

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by Jason

How do I make an angel-free group into the good guys?


I want the PCs to be "the good guys" -- even the demons -- so I'm allowing some modifications for demon mechanics. (For instance, Pachadim will be allowed to have non-predatory relationships with others as long as they've already tried and failed to prey on their insecurities three times.)

I agree w/ the no Shedim rule, personally. For those other Bands who work for Andre, Vapula, Nybbas, and possibly Saminga, you might be able to justify your behaviour to the boss, so long as you stay low on the radar and creatively edit your reports, as well as being able to weasel out of really unpleasant missions. The first three have a wide variety of less repulsive missions, and the last is stupid enough that he can be buffaloed about the actual outcomes of the missions.

Originally Posted by Jason

[redacted]...should ethereals be less associated with Nightmares than in the canon setting?

Probably. Also, expect many of them to be making their own bids for power, if whatever keeps Demons from running loose in the Marches can't keep them down. For that matter, maybe they are what's keeping the forces of Hell running loose in the Marches. What if the hindu and Vodoo pantheons are getting mysteriously larger Essence contributions, and starting to expand into areas previously guarded by Heaven. Alongside them are the multifarious protector spirits of the modern age, from Batman to Voltron and from Sailor moon to mecha pilots.

Originally Posted by Jason

What role with Lilith play?

Lilith may have originally sided with Hell just to make sure Heaven stayed off her back. She has been portrayed as less demonic than the rest of Hell's royalty, though, and with good reason. What's her game now?

one word: Eli. A bit more expansively, she's left Hell, current whereabouts unknown, although she's still known to answer invocation requests occasionally, and is still willing to cut deals. Indeed, some say she'll cut stranger and more dangerous deals than even Hell would allow her to, if you can meet her price. She may or may not still be creating Lilim. If she is, they're created Free, or as Free as Lilim ever start, and they haven't signed on with any Prince since she left. This make the Lilim who remain in Hell an increasingly valuable commodity among Princes, of course, and makes it much harder for Hell's Frees to remain that way.

[tHEhERETIC]

My first thought--the Seraphim Council or somesuch realized that if demons are innately selfish, winning the War is simply a matter of standing back and letting them defeat themselves!

Maybe that's the case, maybe Asmodeus just thinks that's the case and is unwilling to bet he's wrong. So The Game's people respond quickly and harshly to any Disturbance, just in case their celestial cousins are quietly stalking the unwary, like a tiger in the grass...

...or maybe your average demon thinks this. Maybe your average demon isn't sure whether Asmodeus and his people pick off the loud and unwary or whether some (propaganda-inflated) arbitrary predatory uber-angel hunts them all, a celestial bogeyman, a slasher-movie villain on a global scale.

(I need to watch "The Ghost and the Darkness" again I think.)

[Archangel Beth]

they don't want to alert humans to their existence

Also, humans who know Hell exists may try to escape it...

You might wish to invoke the "Symphonic Rebound Effect" as well. I believe that made it into the Expanded Yves Writeup? Essentially, if you meddle too hard, pushing a human towards fate/destiny... The Symphony tends to push back, in the opposite direction, at least as hard as you were pushing and perhaps harder.

Sure, you might manage to tip that fellow over the edge into becoming a serial killer of kindergartners... or you might awaken his 6th Force and make him a raging protector of the small and weak, if you do it wrong.

Just apply this to all demons, and you have a bunch of wild-eyed Fate demons screaming for everyone to just CALM DOWN AND SHUT UP AND STOP PUSHING HUMANS BLESSIT.

(For added fun, have some Fate demons freaking out about Heaven "not being around" because there's no supernatural balance in the Symphony and therefore everything a demon does has the chance to invoke Symphonic Rebound.

Since Kronos and Azzie are as buddy-buddy as Princes get, this also fuels the reasoning for the Hounds of Asmodeus to go after Renegades.)

[cptbutton]

Originally Posted by Jason

Why can't demons just cause as much Symphonic disturbance and general mayhem on Earth as they like?

This is the easiest question for me, as it's pretty much the same stuff mentioned in the rule books: They don't want to screw up Tethers, and they don't want to alert humans to their existence, inviting humans to team up on them. (Demons always outnumbered angels, but I'm ruling that humans now outnumber both.)

Plus, it's not as if Hell is unopposed on Earth. You don't need angels for there to be Soldiers, as that 6th Force can happen naturally (and who's to say that Soldiers don't have a sly angelic patron to grant attunements without their knowledge?). The PCs' major foil will be a group of Soldiers of God in the city who operate out of the Masonic Temple near City Hall. The Soldiers don't really make any distinction between "good guy" demons/spirits and "bad guy" kinds, and are generally pretty ruthless.

My suggestion for this is for demons to believe that not only does disturbance attract soldiers, it might also help create them. So too much disturbance is breeding more enemies.

This setting reminds me of the anime Shakugan no Shana, which I've been meaning to write up as possible IN inspiration. It has bad guys who come from the Crimson Realm to eat peoples' existence, and good guys from the same place who work through human agents they give powers to.

And it has "torches" who are quite like Remnants in IN.

[Jason]

Good points, thanks! I forget sometimes that the ineffability of the Symphony offers some "get out of plot hole free" cards if needed. This would also offer an added reason for why Heaven thought it was worth it to fall off the grid, so to speak: Maybe non-intervention (or just extremely subtle intervention) actually works more in their favor?

[gjc8]

Originally Posted by Jason

Why can't demons just run free in the Marches, terrorizing dreamers?

This question is a little trickier for me. My current plan is to say that demons and spirits who screw around in mortal dreams sometimes just disappear, and never seem to have any indication that anything is coming for them.

It doesn't even have to be Celestials. IMC, confronting a lucid dreamer in their own dreamscape is a harrowing experience, even for a Celestial (I've tweaked the rules somewhat, here; they can't hurt you Celestially, but they can cause serious pain in Ethereally). And, more careless meddling in the Marches -> more nightmares -> more human interest in lucid dreaming.

Of course, you can feel free to spread rumors about any or all solutions. Some demons tell stories of Malakim of Dreams ambushing careless demons, others about the lucid dreamer who dreamed up a blast furnace for an invader.

Originally Posted by Jason

How concerned is Hell about Renegades

I still want Asmodeus to be sending hunters after Renegades, but might this be less of a concern when demons have no other side to defect to? I suppose Asmodeus might still be concerned with this if he's being used by Lucifer (along with Malphas) to make sure other Princes don't get too big for their britches, though...

I never really considered most Renegades serious candidates for Redemption in any case. Most Renegades are simply trying to get out from under the thumb of their Prince (and by extension, Lucifer) and live the high life on Earth.

Rest assured, Lucifer takes this affront personally, and The Game is there to express his displeasure.

Also, The Game is not Judgement. You can end up in hot water without actually doing anything wrong, if someone else finds it beneficial (or amusing) to persecute you.

Originally Posted by Jason

What will the relationship be between Beleth and ethereals?

Some pantheons and spirits might have pledged oaths of fealty in exchange for protection during the Purity Crusade, but now that angels' continued existence is somewhat in doubt by plenty in the Marches, should ethereals be less associated with Nightmares than in the canon setting?

I'd say yes, though some still are affiliated. One more bogeyman to scare Demons in the Marches.[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Jason

What role with Lilith play?

Lilith may have originally sided with Hell just to make sure Heaven stayed off her back. She has been portrayed as less demonic than the rest of Hell's royalty, though, and with good reason. What's her game now?

IMO, Lilith sided with Hell because she's fundamentally Selfish. So she's still trying to increase her personal power and independence. I suppose I could see her disappearing, if she's really chafing under Lucifer, but I think she's still deal-brokering and favor-trading in Hell. All the more, now that the war doesn't distract from Internal Politics.

Originally Posted by Jason;940822[b

What other questions am I missing?[/b]

There are probably issues of logic I'm missing that will invite plot holes. Please do offer any that occur to you!

Hows Baal doing? Did he adapt to a major truce in The War? Did Lucifer promote him to just plain War, now that word-friction with Michael is less likely?

[Jason]

Originally Posted by gjc8

Hows Baal doing? Did he adapt to a major truce in The War? Did Lucifer promote him to just plain War, now that word-friction with Michael is less likely?

Good tips, thanks. As for this question, I was planning on leaving him as "the War" for a couple reasons:

First, Baal himself is almost alone among Princes in being convinced that Heaven is still waging the War, but waging the most effective guerilla campaign ever. He's the one who has suggested that the seeming retreat of Heaven reeks of Khalid, but the inability of demons to encroach much further suggests the subtlety of Michael.

Second, in the absence of Heaven, a lot of demons have come to ... reinterpret their Superiors' Words somewhat, and "The War" fits into that well. It's a lot easier for demons to see themselves as "the good guys" with no actual good guys to compare themselves to. (Habbalah, as you can imagine, are having a field day, convinced that God recalled the weak Choirs to leave them in charge of testing humanity and tempering Hell.) "The War" is a good Word for self-righteous demons who don't think of themselves as promoting war for its own sake, but for any war that represents the clash between good and evil. Demons, of course, will rather arbitrarily decide which side they consider "good," given that they might not actually know it if they'd see it.