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Old 11-08-2018, 11:36 AM   #21
Gnome
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Cambridge, MA
Default Re: Skills and Techniques are too expensive

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Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
For Dungeon Fantasy, I'm not sure why this is a problem. The Basic Set calls anything over 25 an "extreme" level that is "excessive and unbelievable," which pretty much describes GURPS's idea of Dungeon Fantasy characters.
The problem is definitely not about realism--it's about game balance between character archetypes.
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It also warns that having that many levels is counterproductive:
In my opinion that warning is not particularly warranted when it comes to weapon skills. It's easy to rack up the penalties with hit locations, deceptive attacks, rapid strikes, etc.
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you're probably not going to need all those levels, and the points you spent getting there would be better spent on other skills related to the excessive one. I would imagine this "problem" would limit itself, or else your players don't actually mind having inefficient characters (in which case the question of spending too many points on skills and techniques isn't relevant anyway).
The whole problem is that they like efficient characters, but the one-weapon specialist is more powerful in most situations (in a DF game that means combat) than someone with multiple weapon skills, an unarmed combat skill or two, Tactics, etc. And archetypes like the Thief or the Martial Artist are out-shined because they have to split points into many skills while the Swashbuckler can dump all points into the one skill that matters a lot more than those other skills.

If you and I want to build abstract characters for use in a combat situation, and you buy DX 14 and Broadsword-19 while I buy DX 10 and Broadsword-35, I will be able to use deceptive attacks and rapid strikes to make way more hits in the combat than you, AND I will live much longer due to my superior parry. Meanwhile, you will be good at any DX checks that come up. And sure, if you have a few more points you can spend them to buy some other mildly relevant skills like Brawling and Fast-Draw, and these may even be helpful to you from time to time. And of course your Dodge and Move will be better.
So obviously the Broadsword-35 guy is not universally better. But I would argue he's definitely more powerful and more effective. As he should be, given that he's totally specialized in swordplay! But I think the extreme difference in skill levels here leads to an imbalance that's too much for me.

I have sometimes toyed with the idea of resurrecting the old 3e 8/level cost for physical skills, but applying that only to the "most important" skills of the game: that would be weapon skills and spells for DF and other combat-heavy games, but perhaps it would be Observation, Stealth, or Fast-Talk in a spy game, or Strategy in a mass combat game, etc.
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Old 11-08-2018, 11:40 AM   #22
whswhs
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Default Re: Skills and Techniques are too expensive

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Originally Posted by Culture20 View Post
which is what is happening with the linear attribute cost, but just hidden...
Yes, well, I'm proposing that it should happen more so, not less so. Not that I think it's especially "hidden." My proposal doesn't involve doing away with linear attribute costs; it involves changing skills from initial exponential and later linear to consistent exponential.
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Old 11-08-2018, 11:41 AM   #23
ErhnamDJ
 
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Default Re: Skills and Techniques are too expensive

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
Really, it doesn't make sense to me that a character with IQ 8 could dump 20 points into Chemistry and have Chemistry-12.
It doesn't seem to me that Chemistry-12 is ever worth twenty points. I don't know that skill 12 is worth twenty points even for the most useful skills. Opportunity costs apply. You're giving up the ability to get something else that costs twenty points by making that purchase. I can't imagine a scenario where Chemistry-12 is the highest value purchase for twenty (or even more!) points.
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Old 11-08-2018, 11:42 AM   #24
whswhs
 
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Default Re: Skills and Techniques are too expensive

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Originally Posted by Gnome View Post
I have sometimes toyed with the idea of resurrecting the old 3e 8/level cost for physical skills, but applying that only to the "most important" skills of the game: that would be weapon skills and spells for DF and other combat-heavy games, but perhaps it would be Observation, Stealth, or Fast-Talk in a spy game, or Strategy in a mass combat game, etc.
Why not apply it to all skills? If a skill isn't important in a genre, most players won't put enough points into it for the higher cost to make a difference, and you gain the benefit of consistency.
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Old 11-08-2018, 11:47 AM   #25
whswhs
 
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Default Re: Skills and Techniques are too expensive

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Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ View Post
It doesn't seem to me that Chemistry-12 is ever worth twenty points. I don't know that skill 12 is worth twenty points even for the most useful skills. Opportunity costs apply. You're giving up the ability to get something else that costs twenty points by making that purchase. I can't imagine a scenario where Chemistry-12 is the highest value purchase for twenty (or even more!) points.
I think that's irrelevant to the point I was making, which was not about character design strategy but about credible representation of an imagined world. But also, that point wasn't about Chemistry as such; I just picked it at random as a Hard skill. If you want to substitute Diplomacy, or Engineer, or Forgery—or go over to DX and substitute Acrobatics or Karate—be my guest.
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Old 11-08-2018, 11:47 AM   #26
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: Skills and Techniques are too expensive

How would increasing the cost of skills address the fact that they are too expensive currently?
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Old 11-08-2018, 11:51 AM   #27
whswhs
 
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Default Re: Skills and Techniques are too expensive

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Originally Posted by SilvercatMoonpaw View Post
Isn't this basically wildcard skills?
I don't see the similarity. The old 3/e scale that is referred to went 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 24, 32, and so on; the wildcard scale goes 3, 6, 12, 24, 36, 48, 60, and so on. And the 3/e scale applied to narrowly focused skills, whereas wildcards typically cover from six to twelve narrowly focused skills—and anything else where the GM thinks it's plausible (for example, in one of my campaigns, the avatar of the deified Errol Flynn used Sword! to seduce one of the other PCs by fencing with her flirtatiously).
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Old 11-08-2018, 11:52 AM   #28
whswhs
 
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Default Re: Skills and Techniques are too expensive

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
How would increasing the cost of skills address the fact that they are too expensive currently?
It's a way of stating my view that, on the contrary, they are not expensive enough and ought to be more expensive. I think that's obviously on topic.

You might like to go back and look at my examination of proposals for making stats and talents cost more relative to skills. . . .
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Old 11-08-2018, 12:17 PM   #29
ErhnamDJ
 
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Default Re: Skills and Techniques are too expensive

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
I think that's irrelevant to the point I was making, which was not about character design strategy but about credible representation of an imagined world.
I'm confused. What do character point costs have to do with the representation of the world? As I understand them, they're entirely about character creation.

I understand character point costs to be about creating characters of similar usefulness, so that you don't have players with characters of vastly different power levels, and also to put a cap on maximum character power level.

If you have a character point system that leads to one player getting a character with a 3 out of 10 in power, and another player getting a character with a power level of 7 out of 10, then the character point costs seem to have failed at achieving their purpose.

And having a skill level of 12 cost twenty or more points is a way of creating characters with relatively low power levels.

It's like what happens when someone runs a low-powered superheroes game and someone purchases Regrowth for their character. Their character is relatively much less powerful because they spent their points on an overpriced trait.

Overpriced or underpriced traits are undesirable because they lead to characters of relatively different power levels in the same game together. It feels unfair when your character is much weaker than someone else's because you chose the character concept that the system happens to overcharge for.
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Old 11-08-2018, 12:21 PM   #30
johndallman
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Default Re: Skills and Techniques are too expensive

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Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ View Post
I'm confused. What do character point costs have to do with the representation of the world? As I understand them, they're entirely about character creation.
Some consider it desirable for sensible character builds at the power level of "normal people" to have some resemblance to real people.
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