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Old 10-06-2018, 03:17 AM   #1
corwyn
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Saskatoon, SK
Default Undead and Turning

So I finally started my DF game using Hall of Judgement (thanks Doug) and I'm looking at encounters with the undead. The first one went great but the party was not a unit yet so the Cleric was separated from the rest of the group.

Does anyone have experience/ideas for running undead so that Turning doesn't make it trivial. Even Draugr are only Will 10 so, on average, they fail the contest by 6, including Rule of 16.
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Old 10-06-2018, 08:33 AM   #2
Dalin
 
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Default Re: Undead and Turning

I think of adventures with undead as having two potential tracks. Without a cleric, it's a hack-fest and I balance encounters with that in mind. With a cleric, most undead are much easier to bypass, but their threat is not entirely eliminated. Some things I do:
  • Play up the spooky aspect of things. The undead are at the edge of the light, following the group, howling and groaning.
  • Depending on lighting, have the cleric roll against undead that he or she may not be able to see (ones still out in the darkness who can see the cleric). This is always nerve-wracking because the PC won't know if they're just a few more zombies, of if something worse is lurking in the darkness.
  • Even with a wide skill gap, critical successes and failures can allow individual undead to bypass the turning. I play those ones up as cleric killers. They are trying to take down the cleric, destroy the holy symbol, etc. They probably won't succeed, but it makes for some excitement for all the other PCs, trying to act as bodyguards.
  • The cleric has to concentrate every turn. If there is a physical challenge (like climbing a rope, leaping over a pit, etc.) then the cleric may have to break concentration. The effects of turning last for 1d seconds, but then new contests need to be rolled. This can create a very tense (i.e., fun!) situation.
  • Include one or more non-undead creatures with enough intelligence to understand the role of the cleric and want to eliminate them.
  • Sometimes stealing or destroying the holy symbol is easier than taking down the cleric.

Regardless, I always balance two concerns. First and foremost, the cleric paid good points for the ability, so it should feel valuable and powerful. I want them to feel like the scenario was more successful due to their awesome ability. At the same time, nobody wants advantages that make the game boring, so I try to think of ways to include some tension. As a player, I would be rightfully ticked off if every time I try to turn the undead horde, a dire bat flies by and snatches my chalice of chastity. But if it happens once, after many successes, in a dungeon where dire bats have been a thing (and maybe stole other stuff), then I'm all in.

This is all generic advice since I haven't had a chance to run HoJ yet, so I'm not fully up-to-speed on the encounter details.
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Old 10-06-2018, 11:12 AM   #3
Bruno
 
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Default Re: Undead and Turning

Undead with ranged weapons are much more effective at range; so as long as they have space to keep back, they may never get turned in the first place.

Undead don't have to be only with other undead - so the cleric can turn a difficult mixed-origin fight into an easy-but-not-pushover fight with mundanes and some fleeing undead, which is a great use of a power.

Of course, being Turned doesn't explode undead, it just makes them run away. Having a place to run away (rather than get cornered) means that Turning doesn't actually solve the problem (Assuming they aren't slow undead). The group of undead may scatter, but come back later when the party is already fighting something else - at which point the cleric has to stop doing whatever they were doing to help the fight and concentrate on stopping the undead adds. (This is also true if they're just adds/wandering monsters that the party hasn't interacted with yet).

Undead with more Will or Resistant to Good can totally be a thing.
And of course when all else fails, if you have 100 zombies, some of them won't get turned and now you have a relatively normal sized encounter and the cleric still gets to feel all posh and powerful for cutting it down from 100 to 10 or whatever.

Sometimes the cleric should get a chance to just ROFLSTOMP some goony undead. The trick is making sure your entire campaign doesn't consist of low Will, non-resistent undead.
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Old 10-06-2018, 01:14 PM   #4
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Default Re: Undead and Turning

Quote:
Originally Posted by corwyn View Post
Does anyone have experience/ideas for running undead so that Turning doesn't make it trivial.
I changed Turn Undead into Rebuke Undead. Instead of just cowering away, they take the difference in the contest as a penalty on all their actions. If the penalty hits -10 or greater, or the Rebuker get's a critical success (or the Undead a crit fail), they cower.
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Old 10-06-2018, 03:39 PM   #5
corwyn
 
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Default Re: Undead and Turning

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
I changed Turn Undead into Rebuke Undead. Instead of just cowering away, they take the difference in the contest as a penalty on all their actions. If the penalty hits -10 or greater, or the Rebuker get's a critical success (or the Undead a crit fail), they cower.
I think I like that; I don't mind undead, especially fodder type, to have to AOA to have a chance of hitting. Bookkeeping might be a bear, though.
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Old 10-06-2018, 05:09 PM   #6
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Undead and Turning

All 'large bonus against a small category of opponent' powers have the problem that they trivialize that category of encounter and are useless everywhere else. Your basic choices are:
  1. Mixed encounters, so the effect is more commonly useful but less significant.
  2. Accept some encounters being trivialized, and just make sure there's enough variety in encounter that this doesn't make the dungeon as a whole trivial.
  3. Design foes with countermeasures, so the effect is less drastic (for example, zombies that belch poison gas). This bears the risk of making the power someone spent points on useless.
  4. Don't allow those advantages.
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Old 10-07-2018, 01:33 AM   #7
evileeyore
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Default Re: Undead and Turning

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Originally Posted by corwyn View Post
I think I like that; I don't mind undead, especially fodder type, to have to AOA to have a chance of hitting. Bookkeeping might be a bear, though.
The Player rolled and I rolled once for the entire group of Undead (or for individuals if there were different types of Undead mixed together). Bookeeping only get's annoying when you have a bunch of different Undead or a bunch of individual types (like a vampire brood that's individually stated out).
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Old 10-09-2018, 07:14 PM   #8
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Default Re: Undead and Turning

The zombies know not to step on the 3rd block from the warded door. When the PCs step on that block, though, ...

Are the Grimtooth guides available as pdfs anywhere?
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Old 10-11-2018, 11:10 AM   #9
corwyn
 
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Default Re: Undead and Turning

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Originally Posted by Neophyte42 View Post
The zombies know not to step on the 3rd block from the warded door. When the PCs step on that block, though, ...

Are the Grimtooth guides available as pdfs anywhere?
That seemed kinda random but yes.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...imtooths-Traps

Took 5 seconds on google, btw.
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