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Old 03-19-2023, 04:40 AM   #1
Juan
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Madrid, Spain
Default Self aware forest

Hi all.

I need some help.
I want to write up a monster consisting of a self aware forest.

My main concern is how to portray the forest "feels" unwelcome people on it but only when they gather in groups larger than three individuals in a 120 square feet area.

Thanks!!

PD
I am using Adleman Bank as a starting point. It is included in an article by C.J. Miozzi published in Pyramid #3/24.
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Last edited by Juan; 03-19-2023 at 06:00 AM.
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Old 03-20-2023, 06:12 AM   #2
bocephus
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Default Re: Self aware forest

Im not sure how the Adleman Bank article applies really.
Your basic description sounds sort of like Fangorn Forest without the Treants.

You have to answer a couple questions about your creation "the Self Aware Forest".

1) What does "Aware" mean?

2) How developed is the intellect that is behind the awareness? IE a 3yr old is self aware, as is a 45yr old physicist but anyone could see that they will respond differently to the same stimulus. The Adleman Bank is a "human adult intellect", but its origin is clear and its neurosis are also fairly easy to understand.

2.5) How 'Human' is the intellect? Are its motivations something the PCs are able to understand without misunderstanding it?

3) What is the motivation, if any, of this Forest?

4) Since its trees etc... what scale of time does it operate on? Does it perceive and react as we do, or does it take time for it to realize somethings up before deciding to 'do something'
-----------------------------------------------------------


Separate to all that, being menacing and unwelcoming to visitors doesn't have to be overt though I'm not sure DFRPG is the correct product for dealing with this design. If you want it to operate as a single cohesive organism with many diverse parts. There are a lot of ways you could do this, though I would struggle to work it into DFRPG except as "this is just the way it is, PCs are not intended to understand it as an NPC but as a sentient landscape".

I think the easiest way to model this is "sentient landscape" and just do what you want.
Figure out the limitations of actions and work from there:

What are its goals, if any?
What is it's actual intelligence?
What is it's awareness of things that are not 'part of it'?

Can any of the trees actually move as singe entities? What is the limitation of the parts?
Can the entity influence minds directly, as in a psychic attack?
Indirectly influence invaders in it's environs: temperature, ambient light, sounds, smells, images?
Physical attacks, via proxy animals or animated plants?
Coordinated awareness, as in fully aware of its options and resources and able to formulate tactical and strategic offense/defense?
Is it like an immune response, just reacting to stimulus like antibodies trying to swarm a perceived threat till the threat seems to be gone?
Is there an intellect that could be negotiated with, how would it communicate, who would it be willing to talk to and under what circumstances?

Last edited by bocephus; 03-20-2023 at 06:53 AM. Reason: added point 2.5
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Old 03-20-2023, 11:02 AM   #3
Juan
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Madrid, Spain
Default Re: Self aware forest

Thank for your comments. You are right, some additional info might be useful.

I made a short write up trying to be more clear (and try to clarify my own ideas ;-).

"The exact nature of this being would arise hot debate among sages. Some would call it an elemental being; other would argue it is a deranged spirit of great power under delusion symptoms. Some venerate it as a god.

Whatever Bortgjiem Skog is, it is eons old, it is powerful and it has undying memory. It cannot “act” as itself but certainly it can control creatures and plants with his own will. Elementals (even mindless ones) seem to obey the forest but they are not under its control; it is an agreement.

Bortgjiem Skog (The Forgotten Forest) cannot be considered evil. It is an entity which resents change. It is unnerved by magic and it judges sport hunting a criminal act. Necromancy seems to be what it hates the most. After sensing what álfar and humans did to the forest and its creatures and plants, the forests decreed they were unwelcomed. Still, it only can feel such undesired visitors when they gather in groups larger than three individuals of the same species".

For example, three elves would go unnoticed. Two humans and two elves would go unnoticed. Four or more humans would be certainly detected. The forest could send some dire animals to kill them. It is "racist" for it thinks all elves (álfar in the setting) and humans are evil; still no bad feeling against (for example) dwarves or gnomes.

The forest does not "move" but it can use plants (like those found in the Garden of evil book), animals and elementals to fight its enemies. I think Sense life (as in Spells, p 26) would work. Note: Should it know some spells????

Its itelligence should portray that of an old sage; maybe IQ 18/20 in GURPS terms.

* * *

Adleman Bank is a site and a living being. It could be killed and it can communicate. It has good and bad feelings toward some people and it can negociate. That´s what I want this forest to be.

* * *

"PCs are not intended to understand it as an NPC but as a sentient landscape", seems like a good approach. Still I want to leave an open door to the delvers in case they want to communicate with the forest. They could even accept it as a patron!
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Old 03-20-2023, 12:11 PM   #4
bocephus
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Default Re: Self aware forest

I like it, its got a lot of possibilities.

I would probably use it a little differently.
How I could see using it, would be to lower the IQ to more like 11/12. It would also think more slowly, it might react quickly to stimulus at a certain threshold, but actually pondering a question would be like talking to an even slower version of LotR "Treebeard" character. Not dumb, it just lives at a different speed than the PCs.
It doesn't seem to have motivations with 'depth', and it's restrictions are fairly simplistic and easy to circumvent within reasonable limitation. Its still potentially 'smarter' than average, but it has a lot going on and it experiences reality different than PCs. Making it IQ18-20 makes it a super intelligence as well as alien thought processes. It seems too automatically push it into a god like status. No real question about its nature since it's automatically smarter than, as well as completely alien to anyone trying to study it.


I would also suggest that any group of beings above some limit 5/6/8/10... would get it's attention as well. That would at least make it nervous, even if its just 2 humans, 1 elf, 1 gnome and 6 dwarves. A group without any humans or elves might be left more or less alone, but if there is one of these "restricted beings" present the others might well be under their control (much like a pack of wolves in Bortgjiem Skog). It would certainly understand accomplishing goals through the control of other creatures, it would have to project that potential onto any group.

Sport hunting implies too much. I would say allow hunting or don't, using the idea "sport" hunting leaves far too much interpretation. Since its answer to "some humans did a bad thing", was no humans allowed.... I gotta think it would act the same with regard to hunting, or hunting is just the way of things and hunting is allowed. How would it even realize the difference between sport and subsistence hunting from the perspective of a PC?

I could see other restrictions though: no harvesting of living trees, no constructions (maybe you get away with a rope bridge, but not a bridge suitable for horses/carts/wagons), maybe no fire (again its really hard to be subjective about that one, but it's probably experienced at least some lightning strikes that have caused natural fires), no introducing foreign plants (like seeding kudzu or the like),

If it hates necromancy, build on that a little. Why does it hate that? How does it recognize it? Does it have a natural counter effect to it, does the presence of necromancy cause some sort of pain/damage? (while it might drop everything to attack undead, it might also be uniquely susceptible to the energies/attacks that animate them) What has happened in its past that brought necromancy so specifically to it's attentions?

Does it have hard borders, are they easily apparent? Again im picturing Fangorn where it seemed like the Forest just came to a point and stopped, but outside that boundary was grassland. That could just as easily be a giant woods that at some point you are in Bortgjiem Skog but there really isn't a way to know that you made that transition from a regular woods that just exists around it. Does it protect its borders as aggressively as its 'center'?

You have a really interesting back drop here, Id love to see more detail about how you end up using it.
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Old 03-22-2023, 04:18 PM   #5
Juan
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Madrid, Spain
Default Re: Self aware forest

OK. First try to put some numbers...

ST 0; DX 0; IQ 14; HT 100.
HP 2000; Will 20; Per 26.
Basic Speed 0.00; Basic Move 0 [0]*; Dodge/Parry 0. DR 4 SM +90.

Languages: None, but it can communicate with telepathy to any being with IQ 2+.

TRAITS
Advantages 360º Vision; Animal empathy; Compartmentalized mind 4; Doesn´t breath; Doesn´t eat; Doesn´t drink; Doesn´t sleep; Energy Reserve 12; Homogeneous; Internal Discriminatory Smell; Internal Hearing; Internal Sight; Photographic Memory; Mind Probe; Regeneration (Fast); Spirit Empathy; Unaging; Unfazeable.
Disadvantages Bloodlust (against álfar and humans); Cannot Speak (Mute); Delusions (Major); Fanatism; Intolerance (humans & álfar); Intolerance (Necromancy); No Manipulators; No limbs; Paranoia; Truthfulness

Skills: Leadership; Naturalist; Physiology; Strategy; Tactics; Weather Sense. All at 18.

Class: Divine servitor (Nature)

Spells: All at 22

M0: Alertness, Blur, Cold, Continual Light, Coolness, Create Air, Create Fire, Create Food, Create Water, Dark Vision, Darkness, Destroy Air, Destroy Water, Dull (Sense), Earth to Air, Earth Vision, Essential FoodExtinguish Fire, Fear, Fireproof, Flame Jet, Freeze, Frostbite, Heat, Ice Dagger, Ice Sphere, Icy Missiles, Icy Weapon, Ignite Fire, Itch, Keen Hearing, Keen (Sense), Light, Light Jet, Loyalty, Mind-Reading, Mind-Search, Mind-Sending, Night Vision, Nightingale, No-Smell, Noise, Poison Food, Prepare Game, Purify Air, Purify Food, Purify Water, Resist Cold, Resist Fire, Resist Lightning, Resist Sound, Resist Water, Retch, See Invisible, Seek Earth, Seek Fire, Seek Food, Seek Water, Sense Emotion, Sense Foes, Sense Life, Shape Air, Shape Earth, Shape Fire, Shape Water, Smoke, Soul Rider, Sound, Sound Jet, Stench, Stiffen, Telepathy, Tell Position, Test Food, Thunderclap, Tickle, Walk on Air, Walk on Water, Walk Through Earth, Wall of Silence, Warmth, Watchdog, Water Jet, Water Vision, Windstorm

M1: Analyze Magic, Apportation, Astral Vision, Aura, Banish, Charm, Create Earth, Detect Magic, Dispel Magic, Earth to Stone, Entrap Spirit, Explosive Fireball, Explosive Lightning, Far-Feeling, Far-Hearing, Far-Tasting, Find Direction, Fire Cloud, Fireball, Flesh to Stone, Forgetfulness, Frailty, Identify Spell, Know Location, Lend Energy, Lightning, Sight, Magic Resistance, Manipulate, Mystic Mist, Paralyze Limb, Perfect Illusion, Possession, Projection, Purify Earth, Recover Energy, Reflect, Repel Spirits, Sandstorm, Scryguard, See Secrets, Seek Magic, Seeker, Sense Spirit, Sensitize, Share Energy, Shatter, Spark Cloud, Spark Storm, Stone Missile, Stone to Earth, Sunbolt, Trace, Turn Spirit, Wall of Lightning, Ward, Weaken Will, Wizard Eye

M2: Astral Block, Bladeturning, Burning Touch, Command, Command (Spirit), Entombment, Flaming Missiles, Flight , Great Ward, Lightning Missiles, Lightning Weapon, Lockmaster, Pentagram, Phantom, Scry Gate, Seek Gate, Sense Evil, Sharpen, Stone to Flesh, Summon Spirit

M3: Control Gate, Divert Teleport, Ethereal Body, Phase, Phase Other
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Last edited by Juan; 03-22-2023 at 04:23 PM.
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Old 03-23-2023, 08:46 PM   #6
Rhino
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: San Rafael, CA
Default Re: Self aware forest

I can’t help but think you are creating stats for something that really doesn’t need it and indeed would be better without it. YMMV
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Old 03-24-2023, 03:34 AM   #7
bocephus
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Default Re: Self aware forest

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhino View Post
I can’t help but think you are creating stats for something that really doesn’t need it and indeed would be better without it. YMMV
I sort of agree, BUT as GM it's not a bad idea to set up some parameters so that you have a reference to remind you of how to play interactions and to help keep you aware of potential blind spots that PCs could be legitimately exploiting.

Quote:
@ Juan
The way you expressed it earlier I would have made the Bloodlust to Necromancy.
Bloodlust sort of forces you into a hostile interaction without giving the PCs any chance to interact with the Forest. Makes sense for Necromancy, sort of a 'zero tolerance' policy... makes it something you just avoid as a PC if your on the list cause the danger of dying isn't worth engaging with it.

Since it has telepathy to just about anything living I wouldn't even mark the Cannot speak as a disad larger than a quirk. Its more about how others respond to the Telepathy communication method than an actual inability to speak.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Im not sure Skills are a necessary list, because of its long 'life' it could easily acquire a lot of odd 'skills' and in this I agree with Rhino, it would be more appropriate to document blind spots as a reminder for you than document skills that require no justification.

I would drop Strategy (or add it to the doesn't have list) which is more analogous to the study of warfare, interactions between disparate elements and how to create advantage. Long term preparation specifically to interact with advantage, IMO this would require understanding the opponents/invaders/wanderers, as well as a desire to engage them strategically. This being could certainly be tactical, as in responding to put out fires very effectively while also having a bit of a blind spot in understanding how to prevent creatures from making the fires in the first place.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Is there a Disad that addresses its alien nature? Something that reminds you that it may not understand why an elf does something, only that they have done things it finds personally offensive.

It would likely be Callous as well, not really understanding emotional triggers, and even dismissive of their confusing nature.
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Old 03-24-2023, 04:27 AM   #8
Anders
 
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Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Default Re: Self aware forest

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juan View Post
OK. First try to put some numbers...

ST 0; DX 0; IQ 14; HT 100.
HP 2000; Will 20; Per 26.
Basic Speed 0.00; Basic Move 0 [0]*; Dodge/Parry 0. DR 4 SM +90.

Languages: None, but it can communicate with telepathy to any being with IQ 2+.

TRAITS
Advantages 360º Vision; Animal empathy; Compartmentalized mind 4; Doesn´t breath; Doesn´t eat; Doesn´t drink; Doesn´t sleep; Energy Reserve 12; Homogeneous; Internal Discriminatory Smell; Internal Hearing; Internal Sight; Photographic Memory; Mind Probe; Regeneration (Fast); Spirit Empathy; Unaging; Unfazeable.
Disadvantages Bloodlust (against álfar and humans); Cannot Speak (Mute); Delusions (Major); Fanatism; Intolerance (humans & álfar); Intolerance (Necromancy); No Manipulators; No limbs; Paranoia; Truthfulness

Skills: Leadership; Naturalist; Physiology; Strategy; Tactics; Weather Sense. All at 18.

Class: Divine servitor (Nature)

Spells: All at 22

M0: Alertness, Blur, Cold, Continual Light, Coolness, Create Air, Create Fire, Create Food, Create Water, Dark Vision, Darkness, Destroy Air, Destroy Water, Dull (Sense), Earth to Air, Earth Vision, Essential FoodExtinguish Fire, Fear, Fireproof, Flame Jet, Freeze, Frostbite, Heat, Ice Dagger, Ice Sphere, Icy Missiles, Icy Weapon, Ignite Fire, Itch, Keen Hearing, Keen (Sense), Light, Light Jet, Loyalty, Mind-Reading, Mind-Search, Mind-Sending, Night Vision, Nightingale, No-Smell, Noise, Poison Food, Prepare Game, Purify Air, Purify Food, Purify Water, Resist Cold, Resist Fire, Resist Lightning, Resist Sound, Resist Water, Retch, See Invisible, Seek Earth, Seek Fire, Seek Food, Seek Water, Sense Emotion, Sense Foes, Sense Life, Shape Air, Shape Earth, Shape Fire, Shape Water, Smoke, Soul Rider, Sound, Sound Jet, Stench, Stiffen, Telepathy, Tell Position, Test Food, Thunderclap, Tickle, Walk on Air, Walk on Water, Walk Through Earth, Wall of Silence, Warmth, Watchdog, Water Jet, Water Vision, Windstorm

M1: Analyze Magic, Apportation, Astral Vision, Aura, Banish, Charm, Create Earth, Detect Magic, Dispel Magic, Earth to Stone, Entrap Spirit, Explosive Fireball, Explosive Lightning, Far-Feeling, Far-Hearing, Far-Tasting, Find Direction, Fire Cloud, Fireball, Flesh to Stone, Forgetfulness, Frailty, Identify Spell, Know Location, Lend Energy, Lightning, Sight, Magic Resistance, Manipulate, Mystic Mist, Paralyze Limb, Perfect Illusion, Possession, Projection, Purify Earth, Recover Energy, Reflect, Repel Spirits, Sandstorm, Scryguard, See Secrets, Seek Magic, Seeker, Sense Spirit, Sensitize, Share Energy, Shatter, Spark Cloud, Spark Storm, Stone Missile, Stone to Earth, Sunbolt, Trace, Turn Spirit, Wall of Lightning, Ward, Weaken Will, Wizard Eye

M2: Astral Block, Bladeturning, Burning Touch, Command, Command (Spirit), Entombment, Flaming Missiles, Flight , Great Ward, Lightning Missiles, Lightning Weapon, Lockmaster, Pentagram, Phantom, Scry Gate, Seek Gate, Sense Evil, Sharpen, Stone to Flesh, Summon Spirit

M3: Control Gate, Divert Teleport, Ethereal Body, Phase, Phase Other
HT 100 is ridiculously high. I would give it HT 12 and then add an Energy Reserve.
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Old 03-25-2023, 11:13 AM   #9
Juan
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Madrid, Spain
Default Re: Self aware forest

First of all: thank you all for sharing your thoughts. They are appreciated.

Some explanation may help to understand what I am trying to design here: the forest is an enviroment which already interacts with several factions. Some factions try to kill or tame the forest, some venerate it, some elude it. Then, enter the delvers. It can ignore them, be antagonistic or become a friend or even a patron. Maybe it will only become an interesting backdropt as factions try to fulfill their goals.

f I was to GM it myself I would not write stats down, truth be told. But the thing is I want to share a mini-setting with other GMs. Stats may help, I think. If I get them well, at least :-).

About skills....

I want to give an edge to creatures fighting under the forest control. That´s what I was looking for with the Tactics skill. Maybe it could be done better with another mechanic, ruleswise?

* * *

I have adopted most of your kind suggestions. As today, the stats are as follows.

The Forest´s Consciousness
The exact nature of this being would arise hot debate among sages. Some would call it an elemental sublimation; other would argue it is a deranged spirit of great power under delusion symptoms. Some venerate it as a god. Actually, it is an Elder Thing forgotten experiment.

Bortgjiem Skog is eons old, it is powerful and it has undying memory. It cannot “act” as itself but certainly it can control creatures and plants with his own will. Elementals agree to obey the forest; mindless ones feel like they have to.

Bortgjiem Skog cannot be considered evil. It is an entity which resents change. It is unnerved by magic and it judges sport hunting (as killing for any purpose other than feeding) a criminal act. Necromancy seems to be what it hates the most. After sensing what álfar and humans did to the forest and its creatures and plants it decreed they were unwelcomed. Still, it only can feel such undesired visitors when they gather in groups of more than three individuals of the same species.

Dwarves, gnomes and other sentient creatures are unknown to the forest so it hates them not. Still it will not tolerate any “crime” and it will resent extensive lumbering; big hunting parties and killings for any reason but self preservation (the forest understands herbivore killing in order not to be eaten, and a carnivore hunting to feed, as examples).

ST 0; DX 0; IQ 14; HT 14. HP 2000; Will 20; Per 26.
Basic Speed 0.00; Basic Move 0 [0]*; Dodge/Parry 0. DR 4 SM +90.

Languages: None, but it can communicate with telepathy to any being with IQ 2+.

TRAITS
Advantages 360º Vision; Animal empathy; Compartmentalized mind 4; Doesn´t breath; Doesn´t eat; Doesn´t drink; Doesn´t sleep; Energy Reserve 36; Homogeneous; Internal Discriminatory Smell; Internal Hearing; Internal Sight; Photographic Memory; Mind Probe; Regeneration (Fast); Spirit Empathy; Unaging; Unfazeable.

Disadvantages Bloodlust (Necromancy); Callous (does not understand “intelligent beings” feelings and motivatgions); Delusions; Fanatism; Intolerance (álfar and humans); No Manipulators; No limbs; Paranoia; Truthfulness

Skills: Leadership; Naturalist; Physiology; Tactics; Weather Sense. All at 18.

Class: Divine servitor (Nature)

Spells: All at 22

M0: Alertness, Blur, Cold, Continual Light, Coolness, Create Air, Create Fire, Create Food, Create Water, Dark Vision, Darkness, Destroy Air, Destroy Water, Dull (Sense), Earth to Air, Earth Vision, Essential FoodExtinguish Fire, Fear, Fireproof, Flame Jet, Freeze, Frostbite, Heat, Ice Dagger, Ice Sphere, Icy Missiles, Icy Weapon, Ignite Fire, Itch, Keen Hearing, Keen (Sense), Light, Light Jet, Loyalty, Mind-Reading, Mind-Search, Mind-Sending, Night Vision, Nightingale, No-Smell, Noise, Poison Food, Prepare Game, Purify Air, Purify Food, Purify Water, Resist Cold, Resist Fire, Resist Lightning, Resist Sound, Resist Water, Retch, See Invisible, Seek Earth, Seek Fire, Seek Food, Seek Water, Sense Emotion, Sense Foes, Sense Life, Shape Air, Shape Earth, Shape Fire, Shape Water, Smoke, Soul Rider, Sound, Sound Jet, Stench, Stiffen, Telepathy, Tell Position, Test Food, Thunderclap, Tickle, Walk on Air, Walk on Water, Walk Through Earth, Wall of Silence, Warmth, Watchdog, Water Jet, Water Vision, Windstorm

M1: Analyze Magic, Apportation, Astral Vision, Aura, Banish, Charm, Create Earth, Detect Magic, Dispel Magic, Earth to Stone, Entrap Spirit, Explosive Fireball, Explosive Lightning, Far-Feeling, Far-Hearing, Far-Tasting, Find Direction, Fire Cloud, Fireball, Flesh to Stone, Forgetfulness, Frailty, Identify Spell, Know Location, Lend Energy, Lightning, Sight, Magic Resistance, Manipulate, Mystic Mist, Paralyze Limb, Perfect Illusion, Possession, Projection, Purify Earth, Recover Energy, Reflect, Repel Spirits, Sandstorm, Scryguard, See Secrets, Seek Magic, Seeker, Sense Spirit, Sensitize, Share Energy, Shatter, Spark Cloud, Spark Storm, Stone Missile, Stone to Earth, Sunbolt, Trace, Turn Spirit, Wall of Lightning, Ward, Weaken Will, Wizard Eye

M2: Astral Block, Bladeturning, Burning Touch, Command, Command (Spirit), Entombment, Flaming Missiles, Flight , Great Ward, Lightning Missiles, Lightning Weapon, Lockmaster, Pentagram, Phantom, Scry Gate, Seek Gate, Sense Evil, Sharpen, Stone to Flesh, Summon Spirit

M3: Control Gate, Divert Teleport, Ethereal Body, Phase, Phase Other
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Last edited by Juan; 03-25-2023 at 11:29 AM.
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Old 03-28-2023, 02:20 PM   #10
bocephus
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Default Re: Self aware forest

It seems workable to me.
There is enough there to make it easily (IMO) useable and alterable by a GM.

Maybe drop a line or two of explanation as to why Necromancy is so specifically singled out for hatred.

Maybe its not able to detect that kind of energy except by negative awareness (IE I used to be able to feel that part of me, but now I realize it's just gone). Or Necromantic energy is particularly damaging (necromantic energy attacks cause double damage or something) or something that just isn't coming to mind.

It's spell list doesnt carry anything that is 'conflicting' with necromancy, nor does it seem to have any innate or obvious weakness to spells that come to mind. I totally get how a creature like this would focus on life energy but what about it makes it fight without control against necromancy.
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