Nightmares - is there reason NOT to take SC(6)?

vicky_molokh · 11-03-2012, 10:33 AM

Greetings, all!

Looking over at Nightmares, I got wondering: is there any reason not to take the (6) level of self-control [-10] for Nightmares if you're already taking the trait? You gain 5 extra points, and have a much higher chance of losing 1 FP after waking up. But your chance of getting -1 to Per and Skills (or the optional nightmare session) is still based on rolling 17-18. So basically, you can compensate by taking +1 FP [3], or you can just treat Nightmares as a much more interesting reason for having 1 FP less in the PC's reserve (because you typically lose 1 FP when you wake up, and restore 1 FP immediately before waking up).

Thanks in advance!

Fridge Logic Magnet · 11-03-2012, 10:51 AM

I guess we were doing it wrong but our group had the FAT loss accumulate if you kept getting screwed up nights sleep (I think because it seemed genre appropriate somehow). So 3 failed SC rolls and your down 3 unrecoverable FAT until you get an real nights sleep. The GM would allow players to find temporary solutions if it got really bad (for example roleplaying a nightmare session and going from there)

If your just minus 1 FAT all the time (which could be compensated for with a point of extra FAT) it seems pretty wussy. i guess the disad represents real world realistic nightmares ? Maybe we need a cinematic varient ?

whswhs · 11-03-2012, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fridge Logic Magnet

I guess we were doing it wrong but our group had the FAT loss accumulate if you kept getting screwed up nights sleep (I think because it seemed genre appropriate somehow). So 3 failed SC rolls and your down 3 unrecoverable FAT until you get an real nights sleep. The GM would allow players to find temporary solutions if it got really bad (for example roleplaying a nightmare session and going from there).

That seems to be how the rules are meant. It says you have to recover the FP through sleep; but if you have nightmares the next night, you don't get sleep that night, either—so you'd keep the old -1 FP as well as adding another -1 FP. It's the -1 to skill and Per rolls after a critical failure that automatically wears off after one day.

A disad with self-control on (6) is, and is meant to be, pretty damned crippling. I think you were doing it right.

Bill Stoddard

Anaraxes · 11-03-2012, 11:09 AM

I, too, always thought of this FP penalty as cumulative -- just like the one for missed sleep (B427). In fact, they're the same thing. You can only start to recover this lost Fatigue if you make it though a night undisturbed -- that it, you have to succeed on your Nightmare check (as well as not be disturbed for other reasons). So, the worse the SC number, the more likely it is that you'll be stacking up several or many lost FP.

Kallatari · 11-03-2012, 11:36 AM

Myself, I house ruled that in addition to the fatigue loss, a nightmare resulted in a roll on the Fright Check table, with a penalty equal to the margin of failure on your Self-Control roll. This was how I interpreted the fact that Nightmare can, at the GM's whim, cause Phobias, Obsessions, or other psychosomatic problems, as these can all result from a bad Fright roll. It was my way of "standardizing" the effects and removing the GM's whim. Anyway, with that house rule, taking a Self-Control of 6 became much more significant.

As to the RAW for FP loss, I have to admit, I've always interpreted like vicky_molokh, but I now think Fridge Logic Magnet had it right. It's not well explained in the RAW, as it doesn't say you don't rest enough to regain that 1 FP loss from the previous night (after all, maybe the first half of the night is good, and only the second half do you get nightmares), but I think one could easily infer that cumulative effect.

vicky_molokh · 11-03-2012, 11:55 AM

I've considered the idea of nightmare FP loss somehow accumulating, but I see several reasons why it does not seem to be the case:

The disad says that it causes loss of 1 FP upon the end of sleep, but does not prevent recovery of FP during sleep. In fact, FP lost and only recoverable through sleep, and actual missed hours of sleep, are two different game-mechanical effects. Lost FP is lost FP. Lost hours of sleep mean you start losing FP to sleep earlier, and will start making Will rolls to stay awake earlier.

If it does prevent recovery, then we have a [-10] killer disad: SC(6) means 90% chance of failure. That means that there is 90% chance that the PC loses 1 FP and can't restore any previously lost FP. That means that the character can easily (0.9^10=34% chance per ten days) spiral down to negative FP, especially if somehow didn't get enough sleep recently. That would seem like too much trouble for [-10].

(No, medicine is not a solution, since it would be a Mitigator.)

kirbwarrior · 11-03-2012, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Lost hours of sleep mean you start losing FP to sleep earlier, and will start making Will rolls to stay awake earlier.

A player I have has Nightmares (6). And I've been wondering what makes it [-10]. But this line makes me wonder just how much sleep someone is getting. It seems like it's now a combination of FP-1 and More Sleep (can't remember it's actual name). Do you actually need more sleep with Nightmares?

vicky_molokh · 11-03-2012, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

A player I have has Nightmares (6). And I've been wondering what makes it [-10]. But this line makes me wonder just how much sleep someone is getting. It seems like it's now a combination of FP-1 and More Sleep (can't remember it's actual name). Do you actually need more sleep with Nightmares?

Not based on the wording the way I understand it, but of course maybe it implies something that I'm missing. Extra hours of sleep come at [2/level]. Extra FP at [3/level].

Flyndaran · 11-03-2012, 02:44 PM

This really brings up how -1 FT is not simply 1/4 as bad as -4 FT.
I like the Last Gasp's approach.

Eventually you will simply be too exhausted to suffer the full effects of nightmares.

I was prone to them in my youth. Mine though while terrifying when sleeping, when awake sounded incredibly stupid. A 6 inch tall vampire? Really subconscious?
A malevolent, ghostly, disembodied, telepathic, cat head? Brain, what have you been smoking when I wasn't paying attention?

Bruno · 11-03-2012, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

I was prone to them in my youth. Mine though while terrifying when sleeping, when awake sounded incredibly stupid. A 6 inch tall vampire? Really subconscious?
A malevolent, ghostly, disembodied, telepathic, cat head? Brain, what have you been smoking when I wasn't paying attention?

I used to get Night Terrors until I found the right medication. Free floating terror of nothing in particular, at 2AM. "What are you scared of?" "NOTHING! EVERYTHING!" *cower*

11-03-2012, 10:33 AM	#1
vicky_molokh GURPS FAQ Keeper Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Kyïv, Ukraine	Nightmares - is there reason NOT to take SC(6)? Greetings, all! Looking over at Nightmares, I got wondering: is there any reason not to take the (6) level of self-control [-10] for Nightmares if you're already taking the trait? You gain 5 extra points, and have a much higher chance of losing 1 FP after waking up. But your chance of getting -1 to Per and Skills (or the optional nightmare session) is still based on rolling 17-18. So basically, you can compensate by taking +1 FP [3], or you can just treat Nightmares as a much more interesting reason for having 1 FP less in the PC's reserve (because you typically lose 1 FP when you wake up, and restore 1 FP immediately before waking up). Thanks in advance! __________________ Vicky 'Molokh', GURPS FAQ and uFAQ Keeper

11-03-2012, 10:51 AM	#2
Fridge Logic Magnet Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Canada	Re: Nightmares - is there reason NOT to take SC(6)? I guess we were doing it wrong but our group had the FAT loss accumulate if you kept getting screwed up nights sleep (I think because it seemed genre appropriate somehow). So 3 failed SC rolls and your down 3 unrecoverable FAT until you get an real nights sleep. The GM would allow players to find temporary solutions if it got really bad (for example roleplaying a nightmare session and going from there) If your just minus 1 FAT all the time (which could be compensated for with a point of extra FAT) it seems pretty wussy. i guess the disad represents real world realistic nightmares ? Maybe we need a cinematic varient ?

11-03-2012, 11:09 AM	#4
Anaraxes Join Date: Sep 2007	Re: Nightmares - is there reason NOT to take SC(6)? I, too, always thought of this FP penalty as cumulative -- just like the one for missed sleep (B427). In fact, they're the same thing. You can only start to recover this lost Fatigue if you make it though a night undisturbed -- that it, you have to succeed on your Nightmare check (as well as not be disturbed for other reasons). So, the worse the SC number, the more likely it is that you'll be stacking up several or many lost FP.

11-03-2012, 11:36 AM	#5
Kallatari Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Ottawa, Canada	Re: Nightmares - is there reason NOT to take SC(6)? Myself, I house ruled that in addition to the fatigue loss, a nightmare resulted in a roll on the Fright Check table, with a penalty equal to the margin of failure on your Self-Control roll. This was how I interpreted the fact that Nightmare can, at the GM's whim, cause Phobias, Obsessions, or other psychosomatic problems, as these can all result from a bad Fright roll. It was my way of "standardizing" the effects and removing the GM's whim. Anyway, with that house rule, taking a Self-Control of 6 became much more significant. As to the RAW for FP loss, I have to admit, I've always interpreted like vicky_molokh, but I now think Fridge Logic Magnet had it right. It's not well explained in the RAW, as it doesn't say you don't rest enough to regain that 1 FP loss from the previous night (after all, maybe the first half of the night is good, and only the second half do you get nightmares), but I think one could easily infer that cumulative effect.

11-03-2012, 11:55 AM	#6
vicky_molokh GURPS FAQ Keeper Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Kyïv, Ukraine	Re: Nightmares - is there reason NOT to take SC(6)? I've considered the idea of nightmare FP loss somehow accumulating, but I see several reasons why it does not seem to be the case: The disad says that it causes loss of 1 FP upon the end of sleep, but does not prevent recovery of FP during sleep. In fact, FP lost and only recoverable through sleep, and actual missed hours of sleep, are two different game-mechanical effects. Lost FP is lost FP. Lost hours of sleep mean you start losing FP to sleep earlier, and will start making Will rolls to stay awake earlier. If it does prevent recovery, then we have a [-10] killer disad: SC(6) means 90% chance of failure. That means that there is 90% chance that the PC loses 1 FP and can't restore any previously lost FP. That means that the character can easily (0.9^10=34% chance per ten days) spiral down to negative FP, especially if somehow didn't get enough sleep recently. That would seem like too much trouble for [-10]. (No, medicine is not a solution, since it would be a Mitigator.) __________________ Vicky 'Molokh', GURPS FAQ and uFAQ Keeper Last edited by vicky_molokh; 11-03-2012 at 11:59 AM.

11-03-2012, 02:44 PM	#9
Flyndaran Untagged Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Forest Grove, Beaverton, Oregon	Re: Nightmares - is there reason NOT to take SC(6)? This really brings up how -1 FT is not simply 1/4 as bad as -4 FT. I like the Last Gasp's approach. Eventually you will simply be too exhausted to suffer the full effects of nightmares. I was prone to them in my youth. Mine though while terrifying when sleeping, when awake sounded incredibly stupid. A 6 inch tall vampire? Really subconscious? A malevolent, ghostly, disembodied, telepathic, cat head? Brain, what have you been smoking when I wasn't paying attention? __________________ Beware, poor communication skills. No offense intended. If offended, it just means that I failed my writing skill check.