Disney's Gargoyles in GURPS

[Vaevictis Asmadi]

I've never found a 4E Reduced Manual Dexterity, but that's exactly what Missing Digit does. Gargoyles also have big claws on their fingers.

Originally Posted by Zorian

1. Regen ect while in Stone form/Day. In the series unless it was some sort of weirdness the Gargoyle was completely (or almost completely) fixed of damage/disease/poison and VRH would only get 3 HP per day. Though not Regrowth.

Thanks for your feedback!
Yeah, I don't have enough experience to know whether 3 HP is a moderate or small amount. Unless I'm mistaken though, VRH gives 2 HP per 24 hours, and Slow Regeneration gives up to 3 HP over 24 hours.

I also think they should be ,while in stone form homogeneous and not specially vulnerable to types of damage. Brittle should cover that.

I put the vulnerability to crushing because that always seems to be the way sleeping gargoyles are killed... Brittle changes the effects of crippled limbs and HT rolls to avoid death, but doesn't actually make the whole body brittle in the sense of cracking or chipping more easily. I think friable is what I'm looking for. I guess I don't know if sleeping gargoyles are that brittle, though. Since they're helpless during the day, it almost seems that it wouldn't matter much. If somebody wants to kill a sleeping gargoyle, they'll eventually find a way, unless the sun is just about to set.

I don't agree about Homogenous, though. Homogenous means that you have no bones, muscles, brain, or internal organs. Stone Sleep looks magical, but it isn't, it's biological. Although sleeping gargoyles look homogenous, they still have bones and organs, and are still biological entities, not actual stone. It's just that their bones, organs, and muscles all have roughly the same color. But if you stab their kidney, it's still a kidney, not a mass of protoplasm or mineral.

2. On the same point they should not have the Very Rapid Healing and Disease Resistance +8 because of above.

I gave them the Disease Resistence because of Greg Weisman's comments that stone sleep kills most disease organisms a gargoyle ever gets, which would occur during the incubation before the first damage cycle in GURPS terms.
If I change the VRH to Regeneration (Slow), then in 24 hrs a gargoyle can recover 2 or 3 HP, depending on their HT roll. If I leave VRH in as well, then the maximum is 4 HP instead. Which do you you think is better?
In "Long Way to Morning," Demona shot Goliath with a laser and he was pretty badly hurt, but after one day's sleep he was well or close to it. In "Masque" when Thailog stabbed him in the guts, he commented a few days later that he was "healed, but not whole," indicating that he wasn't back up to full HP, but was close to it. Neither injury was bad enough to be fatal, but in GURPS terms, Demona's laser probably got him down to 1/3 HP, and Thailog's knife may have done worse.
If a gargoyle does suffer massive or fatal damage during sleep, such as losing an entire arm, they probably will die and never wake up, according to Weisman.

3. On DR, just my opinion, but I think they should have more like 3-6 for racial average. Goliath is admittedly really tough but he did catch a broadsword in his hand being swung by a strong guy and took 1 HP of damage and they had the rep of being supernaturally tough (see first ep). The comments about the gunfire have already been made. Also, if you have DR tough skin do you really need the Perk Tough feet (don't have penalties for not wearing shoes)?

That's a good question about the feet. I can't find the bare feet rule in the Basic Set, but you're probably right.
Goliath's hand was hurt much worse than it looked... Disney only allowed them to animate one drop of blood, but Weisman said that Hakon cut his hand to the bone. It takes 6 HP to cripple a hand on a creature with 16 ST (Goliath no doubt has more ST!), though I don't know if cutting to the bone counts as crippling the hand. It does make me think gargoyles should have VRH plus Regeneration, though.
In the Basic Set DR 3 is described as "rhinoceros hide," DR 4 is described as "alligator scales or elephant hide," and DR 5 is what a giant tortoise would have.

4. Personally, should Congenial and Broadminded be racial traits? Though it seemed to me that Gargoyles from every Clan had rigid personalities and not very creative. With the exception of certain examples I would say most were Hidebound and Quirk level of Chummy. Maybe others.

Congenial is the Quirk version of Chummy. I put Broad-Minded because Gargoyles really don't seem bothered by physical appearance. They themselves vary enormously, and they aren't quite as prone to intolerance as humans. Not that they're immune to it! But they're less likely, on average, to judge somebody by their looks.
I agree that some gargoyles (such as Hudson) are Hidebound or at least Dull, but I don't know that it's widespread or common. I think it has more to do with age, and what time-period they grew up in. The "Trio" don't seem Hidebound, for example, especially not Lex. Neither does Griff.

5. Would the claws on the wings really be Strikers in the GURPS meaning? Maybe on certain individuals but not across the board. I also agree with earlier comments that their claws should have at least one level of AP.

I guess I've never seen them attack with the claws, though they do use their wings to hit people occasionally. I'll change the default Strikers to something else, though.
I don't know what AP is.

6. I think they shouldn't have the Missing Finger disad but a Quirk level instead. They should have the Dex penalties most of the time because their hand is designed to have 3 fingers.

My impression is that manual Dexterity penalties apply whether the hand design is racial or the result of injury. The question in my mind is, does a four-fingered hand really have -1 manual DX, and should that really cost -2 points instead of -1?

7. Lower the Dex at least on level maybe even to human normal. They never struck me, as a race, more Dex than human at least not a whole 2 levels. Another idea lower the base Movement but buy back several (only when on all fours). Play with that keeping in mind the flight.

You mean, give them human-level DX, but increase their Basic Move or Basic Speed? I was thinking of increasing the Speed. I want them to have something in that department, because the gargs in the show were always so fast. That could be training, though, I suppose.

[Zorian]

As a note, I've seen the cartoon and read a short thing about other ideas for spin off series but that is it anything else I don't know about. So if the creator has stated something I wouldn't know about it. :)

On their Manuel Dex my take is that they are about the same level as humans, though if you give them a racial to Dex then the Missing Digit for both hands would balance it.

You're right about the VRH being 2 hp on a roll, I don't know why I thought it was 3. But they should be able to heal over 8 hp during the day, Goliath would have at least the upper teens in HP and he went from under 1/3 to mostly ok from the laser incident. A limit of (only while in stone form) should be at least-20% and remember that one level of regen give rapid healing for free. ...you know maybe Regen (slow) for the default but more powerful one's like Goliath have Regen (regular) though would keep the cost of the template down.

On the homogeneous that is based on some info I don't know about. I think Brittle handles the stone form without adding the Vul. Brittle makes it so it you fail the HT roll you die.

...on the Disease Resistance, I see that. Though would Immunity to Disease/Poison (only when alseep/stone) make it so they could be affected but then make it go away or would they still be affected when they woke up?

I follow you about the DR but I think it should be higher than 1.

"Congenial is the Quirk version of Chummy." Doh, you're right. :)

Though I do stand by part of comment on Broadminded. Every Clan they showed was well...clannish. They don't trust outsiders but once they do (trust you that is) ,BOOM, they like you. So I don't think they should be ,racially, more tolerant than humans they just don't tend to base intolerance on physical appearance as much but personalities/honor. Which would make them more "noble". :)

On the wings, I would just write those hits off to shoulder slams with a special effect, for the average Gargoyle anyway. That Striker ups the cost of the template a lot.

AP means armor piercing , it would up the cost of the Claws by very little but make it so they could reliably damage higher DR w/o making them do massive amounts of damage to lower DR opponents.

On the Dex stuff, they should have higher than human Speed but their bipedal Movement should be lower than human average...plus several levels with (only while on all fours). The way I remember it, when they moved real fast they were on all fours and tended to be slow while upright.

[Opellulo]

About the missing digit: it's a common feature in western animation, all the disney classical characters got 4 digits, as well as Warner's and many others. It allows the animators to semplify their work, having a digit less to draw and move while mantaining all the natural movements.

I dont' think this would be counted as a disav.

[Zorian]

In the show the Gargoyles have 3 fingers but humans have 4 but at this point the disad is being discussed to represent a lower Manual Dex without using the the Bad Grip disad which the Gargoyles would not have.

[mjj1976]

I decided to start catching up on the "Ask Greg" column, and I've come across something quite bizzare...

In response to the question "In the episode Long Way to Morning, when Demona, Goliath, and Hudson turn to stone, why does Demona's cannon turn to stone too?", Greg Weisman responds "She obviously regarded it as an extension of herself at that moment."

Unless he was being sarcastic, doesn't this blow the "Gargoyles aren't magic" theory to bits?

[Vaevictis Asmadi]

Originally Posted by Zorian

As a note, I've seen the cartoon and read a short thing about other ideas for spin off series but that is it anything else I don't know about. So if the creator has stated something I wouldn't know about it. :)

Understood. The Ask Greg archives are HUGE. :)
But the new comic is awesome.

On their Manuel Dex my take is that they are about the same level as humans, though if you give them a racial to Dex then the Missing Digit for both hands would balance it.

Good point.

But they should be able to heal over 8 hp during the day, Goliath would have at least the upper teens in HP and he went from under 1/3 to mostly ok from the laser incident. A limit of (only while in stone form) should be at least-20% and remember that one level of regen give rapid healing for free. ...you know maybe Regen (slow) for the default but more powerful one's like Goliath have Regen (regular) though would keep the cost of the template down.

I tried to simulate the injuries Goliath took in "Awakening," "Long Way," "Masque," and "Bash" using GURPS. I haven't gotten around to simulating how he recovered, but I did figure out that, unless Thailog got two critical hits in a row and both caused double damage, Goliath can't have more than 3 DR.
I'm thinking that (only while asleep) will only be -5% on Regeneration, because it will only say "recover 2 HP every 24 hrs" instead of "1 HP every 12 hrs."

...on the Disease Resistance, I see that. Though would Immunity to Disease/Poison (only when alseep/stone) make it so they could be affected but then make it go away or would they still be affected when they woke up?

Immunity would mean they never have to roll to resist catching the disease. In GURPS, this has the same effect as the disease always dying every time they sleep, during the incubation period, before symptoms appear. But I don't think they should be immune to everything. After all, if gargoyles can evolve stone sleep, some bacteria, somewhere, is going to evolve ways to survive it.

I follow you about the DR but I think it should be higher than 1.

I'm thinking DR 2 now.

Though I do stand by part of comment on Broadminded. Every Clan they showed was well...clannish. They don't trust outsiders but once they do (trust you that is) ,BOOM, they like you. So I don't think they should be ,racially, more tolerant than humans they just don't tend to base intolerance on physical appearance as much but personalities/honor. Which would make them more "noble". :)

Yeah... or maybe just, that they're suspicious of humans! So is it a Quirk, a Perk, or a Feature, if they're merely not bothered by physical looks?
Still, gargoyles don't judge each other based on looks. Compared to humans, who so often get hung up on skin color, eye shape, and country of origin, gargoyles' mild suspicion of humans is pretty, well, mild.
Of course, in my opinion, the real human average is Chauvinistic.

On the wings, I would just write those hits off to shoulder slams with a special effect, for the average Gargoyle anyway. That Striker ups the cost of the template a lot.

What about changing them to crushing (blunt claws or none at all) and maybe even weak, since it takes less muscle power to glide than to fly?

AP means armor piercing , it would up the cost of the Claws by very little but make it so they could reliably damage higher DR w/o making them do massive amounts of damage to lower DR opponents.

That makes sense for the wing claws, though it would cost more. But remember what Demona did to Gillecomgain's face? I think their hands do cause massive damage to unarmored targets!

On the Dex stuff, they should have higher than human Speed but their bipedal Movement should be lower than human average...plus several levels with (only while on all fours). The way I remember it, when they moved real fast they were on all fours and tended to be slow while upright.

Very good point. Increasing the DX gives them faster bipedal movement, and that doesn't make any sense. They should get improved dodge speed, and something that improves Basic Speed for combat "initiative" but doesn't change Move. And then maybe a separate quad move bonus. Oh, and a Brawling skill bonus.

Originally Posted by mjj1976

In response to the question "In the episode Long Way to Morning, when Demona, Goliath, and Hudson turn to stone, why does Demona's cannon turn to stone too?", Greg Weisman responds "She obviously regarded it as an extension of herself at that moment."

Unless he was being sarcastic, doesn't this blow the "Gargoyles aren't magic" theory to bits?

Partially. Gargoyles' bodies turn to "stone" because of their (cinematic) biology. But their clothes and possessions do turn to "stone" through magic, because of a spell cast on their entire species by one very powerful magus during the Roman Empire. Basically, whenever gargoyles used to wake up, anything they happened to be wearing would be shredded. Some gargs were visiting Ceasar Augustus, and not being Greek, he didn't appreciate their nudity. So he ordered his court mage to do something about it. Said court mage was also the first guy to discover that Eye of Odin+Phoenix Gate+Grimorum Arcanorum=godly power!, so he could cast huge spells like that.

As a result, clothes and held objects the gargoyle regards as "part of the uniform" change with their bodies. This is also why Hudson's sword sometimes turns to stone with him, and sometimes stays metal. It depends on his opinion of it at the time!



EDIT: One issue with the fingers/hands is that some gargoyles have only three fingers per hand. There's one in Japan who was animated that way, so it could be a disadvantage available to PCs and NPCs. Even if four-fingered hands don't appreciably reduce DX, three-fingered hands would.

[mjj1976]

Being that there's no "Extra Digit" trait, I think we can assume that Missing Digit was intended for characters who've lost one of their normal digits. Gargoyles get along just fine with three fingers and a thumb, because they were made that way.

Originally Posted by Vaevictis Asmadi

Partially. Gargoyles' bodies turn to "stone" because of their (cinematic) biology. But their clothes and possessions do turn to "stone" through magic, because of a spell cast on their entire species by one very powerful magus during the Roman Empire. Basically, whenever gargoyles used to wake up, anything they happened to be wearing would be shredded. Some gargs were visiting Ceasar Augustus, and not being Greek, he didn't appreciate their nudity. So he ordered his court mage to do something about it. Said court mage was also the first guy to discover that Eye of Odin+Phoenix Gate+Grimorum Arcanorum=godly power!, so he could cast huge spells like that.

As a result, clothes and held objects the gargoyle regards as "part of the uniform" change with their bodies. This is also why Hudson's sword sometimes turns to stone with him, and sometimes stays metal. It depends on his opinion of it at the time!

To take an animator's error and somehow turn it into acceptable canon... I've gotta say that Weisman has officially gone around the bend. Honestly, it sounds like something that over-eager fans would've come up with (or perhaps someone who's desparate to keep his own creation saleable in a market of an increasingly-skeptical viewership). Has he been taking lessons from George Lucas?

[Zorian]

The thing is mjj1976, when modeling something in GURPS sometimes its is best to look at the mechanical effect of a advantage/disadvantage ect and not its name. You could take the Advantage "Missing Finger" and the character could have all his fingers but has the mechanic of lowered Dex using that hand but without having a weak grip like the Advantage of the same name. Since the race in question also has fewer fingers than the default it also handles the Quirk level part of having fewer fingers ,can't wear normal gloves ect.
I have to fight the impulse too. :)

Also Vaevictis Asmadi, I think of humans having 4 fingers and one thumb not 5 fingers ,which is the reference point I am using. Just in case I confuse you when I refer to the Gargoyles having 3 fingers.

About the limit on the Regen ,or whatever else you want to have happen only in stone form, the -20% is straight out of the Basic set as the appropriate % for (only at night or only during day) and then it does not work at all during the night.

The other thing about the stone sleep...frankly it really doesn't matter on other even the creators viewpoint on how it works. Decide how it works for you and your game, and be consistent. Since magic exists as a natural part of that world the Gargoyles could have naturally "evolved" to use magic biologically. Then it would be both magic and biology. Heck, I completely disagree with what Georgie says the Force works like, when I run a Star Wars game the world works like the movies ect on the surface but underneath...\

On the wings, I say drop the Strikers entirely for the racial package. They ,from what I remember, rarely hit people with their wings and it was usually some of the big ones like Goliath doing it.

On the AP put it on the hand Claws, those are the claws that left deep marks in stone and metal. To do that without AP would require a REALLY high Strength and they would one hit kill unarmored humans every time. Remember Demona is a REALLY powerful Gargoyle and should not be used as a basis for what is normal but has a upper end. Assuming a Str of 16 and a Brawl of Dex +2 she would do 1d6+2 (cu) which would mess up unarmored humans that hit would average 7-8 HP in a hit and I know there are other ways in increase that damage. This is enough to inflict a Major Wound to someone up to 14-16 HPs ...to the face this would have the affect you mentioned, I think.

On the Dex thing, you can buy up the Dex then buy down the Movement ,leaving the Speed at the calculated level (or buy higher) and then buy the Dodge higher if you want.

I wouldn't give them racial bonus to Brawling unless your take is that their warrior culture is so widespread it is part and partial to the template. Remember they can use their Dex to hit with their natural weapons no modifiers ...they just lose the parry (which you don't really want to do against weapons when your hand has DR of 1-3) and the other special tricks involved in a skill. It's not like Sword or Karate with default pen.

[RedMattis]

Originally Posted by mjj1976

Being that there's no "Extra Digit" trait, I think we can assume that Missing Digit was intended for characters who've lost one of their normal digits. Gargoyles get along just fine with three fingers and a thumb, because they were made that way.

The effect is the only important thing here though. The fact that you get -1 to DX because you lack a finger is just fluff.

[Vaevictis Asmadi]

mjj1976, I agree it's silly. I'd rather they just wear clothes without destroying them every evening, personally. It'd be way simpler.
But you misunderstand me. That story was invented because they wear clothes, not because of the gun. Disney wasn't going to air a children's cartoon with naked humanoid character models. If they didn't wear clothes to begin with, the gun turning to stone would indeed be interpreted as an animation error, or it would never have been animated that way at all.
The point of gargoyles being fundamentally non-magical isn't for realism, in an unrealistic series full of magic spells, fairies, physical gods, time travel, and funky science. It's just part of the concept, that's all. Gargoyles are described as mortal beings, just as mortal as humans and animals, unlike the fair folk.
Personally, although I greatly enjoy the fantasy elements in the show, I prefer the gargs themselves as mortal animals, not magical fairy creatures. The "science" of how they operate doesn't really work for me and I wish the non-magical elements were more realistic, but its basically a superhero setting, so I don't really expect it to be realistic. Relative realism doesn't seem to be a priority for the author.

Originally Posted by Zorian

About the limit on the Regen ,or whatever else you want to have happen only in stone form, the -20% is straight out of the Basic set as the appropriate % for (only at night or only during day) and then it does not work at all during the night.

I don't think that limitation is appropriate for an Advantage that already functions on 12-hour cycles. It would apply if they had higher levels of Regeneration, but I'm not using those.

I did some calculations. In order to recover as well as he did, even with the medical care, when he was injured in those three eps, Goliath must have Slow Regeneration and Very Rapid Healing. But VRH is a mundane trait that any character can buy, so I'm only putting Slow Regen in the template. I'm keeping the Vulnerability, but changing the multiplier to crx1.5. The same rigidity that gives them a DR bonus also means that blunt damage cracks the flesh, instead of bending it.

I do not want them to have something huge like Regular Regen, where they get 1 HP per hour. I also do not want to make them magical stone statues. I prefer them to be less exotic, not more so.

I still want to keep the wing strikers. The question to me isn't, How often do they use them? I think the question should be, Can they use them to hit things? I don't know how they can have movable appendages that literally can't hit things. Now, Strikers doesn't cover every single appendage. A cat's tail isn't strong enough to count, for example. But even gliding wings must be strong enough to support the body weight. Maybe they are clumsy, and that's why they are rarely used in combat. Probably can't parry. But I doubt they are so weak they can't be used at all.

You are right about the claws digging into walls. To give the hand claws AP, I need to attach an Armor Divisor. AD 2 is +50% cost, so Sharp Claws becomes 8 pts.

On the Dex thing, you can buy up the Dex then buy down the Movement ,leaving the Speed at the calculated level (or buy higher) and then buy the Dodge higher if you want.

That works.

Remember they can use their Dex to hit with their natural weapons no modifiers ...they just lose the parry (which you don't really want to do against weapons when your hand has DR of 1-3) and the other special tricks involved in a skill.

Good point, again.


Is anyone interested in seeing the template when I'm done?