Mounted infantry, overruns, and ramming

[GranitePenguin]

Originally Posted by Talorien

Note that no other unit which can carry infantry can ram, under the overrun rules. This is because the only situation in which rams can happen when using the overrun rules is under 8.05.2.

That's not true:

8.05.3 Ramming by other units during overruns. Any other unit which could legally ram a unit or building during regular movement may ram at the end of its first fire round, with normal effects.

This is part of the issue I have in general with the lack of distinction between the basic ramming rules and the overrun rules. There is ramming in overruns, but it's not well defined what happens; especially since 6.00 says there shouldn't be any ramming in overruns. In either case, neither 6.00 rules nor 8.00 rules say how mounted INF should be handled during a ram of ANY kind.

[offsides]

I think the crux of the matter is this (and it should probably be a FAQ):

Mobile Armor can ram Ogres and Trains.
GEVs, GEV-PCs, HVYs and SHVYs can ram Buildings.

If an armor unit is carrying INF when they ram during an overrun, the INF get attacked (HVY ramming a building, SHVY ramming a building or Ogre) or go poof (any other situation) along with the armor. Obviously, this is irrelevant in games without stacking/overruns (which likely excludes ramming buildings and trains anyway).

[ColBosch]

I've got some ideas for clarifying the rules, but since there's some actual changes involved - and a substantial amount of sections 6 and 8 would need to be revised - I'm holding off on posting them until Talorian gives an okay. I don't want to step on anyone's toes here.

[Talorien]

Originally Posted by GranitePenguin

That's not true:

8.05.3 Ramming by other units during overruns. Any other unit which could legally ram a unit or building during regular movement may ram at the end of its first fire round, with normal effects.

This is part of the issue I have in general with the lack of distinction between the basic ramming rules and the overrun rules. There is ramming in overruns, but it's not well defined what happens; especially since 6.00 says there shouldn't be any ramming in overruns. In either case, neither 6.00 rules nor 8.00 rules say how mounted INF should be handled during a ram of ANY kind.

Bah, pesky 8.05.3. I stand corrected :P

Thankfully, the same principles apply. From 5.11.2, the infantry suffer an attack of equal attack strength and die result.

Since an automatic X has indeterminate AS and die result, but we know it's a very strong attack, treat it as an automatic X on any mounted infantry as well.

Therefore, for e.g.:

A Heavy Tank (or any other vehicle) with mounted infantry, which rams an Ogre in overrun via 8.05.3, or which is rammed by an Ogre: vehicle and infantry both destroyed

A GEV-PC with mounted infantry, which rams another vehicle via 8.05.3: GEV-PC and infantry both destroyed

A Heavy Tank with mounted infantry, which is rammed by a GEV (6.07.3) via 8.05.3: the infantry suffer a simultaneous attack, see 5.11.2

I think that should cover it in terms of categories of mounted ramming permutations. Shout out if you find a ramming exception which doesn't logically fall into one of the above.

[Talorien]

Originally Posted by GranitePenguin

neither 6.00 rules nor 8.00 rules say how mounted INF should be handled during a ram of ANY kind.

It's not generally an issue for Section 6, because those rules assume that you are playing without stacking (and so infantry can't be mounted on vehicles).

It's thus only an issue for Section 8, which I believe I've covered above.

If you want to play with Section 6 rules AND stacking (which is already a house rules situation), you can further decide to house rule:

- Infantry will be allowed to dismount before ramming (like a house rule version of 8.06.1)

- Infantry will not be allowed to dismount before ramming

In either case, go ahead and follow the ramming-in-overrun consequences for infantry I've outlined above in this thread

[GranitePenguin]

Originally Posted by Talorien

I hope that helps. I'm 99.9% sure at this point that 8.06.1 as an exception to 5.11.3 was Steve's intent when he wrote the rules.

I'd say that works. At some point I'm sure we will find out ;-)

Originally Posted by Talorien

Having said all that, there are situations where it's a free 1-hex movement boost to infantry who want to overrun something 3 hexes away (they'll need to have a mountable vehicle begin in their hex).

Not true. The rule is the INF simply have to use all their movement for the turn. The AU does not have to start in their hex. Granted, there aren't many units that can move 4 hexes in one movement phase that could do it (GEVs don't count because they can't be mounted, but a Mark IV could), but the current rule does not disallow it, and there might be some in the future.

5.11.3 Mount/dismount sequencing for infantry. To mount a vehicle, an infantry squad must spend its entire movement for the turn. The vehicle may either start in the infantry’s starting hex or pass through it. The vehicle moves normally on that turn.

The OLD version of the rule does, though. :-)

Originally Posted by Talorien

I think that should cover it in terms of categories of mounted ramming permutations. Shout out if you find a ramming exception which doesn't logically fall into one of the above.

I think that pretty much covers it, and when have I ever made noise about a rule?

[offsides]

Originally Posted by Talorien

Bah, pesky 8.05.3. I stand corrected :P

Thankfully, the same principles apply. From 5.11.2, the infantry suffer an attack of equal attack strength and die result.

Since an automatic X has indeterminate AS and die result, but we know it's a very strong attack, treat it as an automatic X on any mounted infantry as well.

While that works for rams, what about the case of INF riding in a truck, which is D0. Even a D1 attack on the truck is and automatic X, but what about the INF? Do they get a die roll? And even though they're stuck together in the back of a truck, would 2 INF squads in a truck defend as a single D2, or as 2 D1s like normal overrun rules?

Originally Posted by Talorien

Therefore, for e.g.:

A Heavy Tank (or any other vehicle) with mounted infantry, which rams an Ogre in overrun via 8.05.3, or which is rammed by an Ogre: vehicle and infantry both destroyed

A GEV-PC with mounted infantry, which rams another vehicle via 8.05.3: GEV-PC and infantry both destroyed

A Heavy Tank with mounted infantry, which is rammed by a GEV (6.07.3) via 8.05.3: the infantry suffer a simultaneous attack, see 5.11.2

I think that should cover it in terms of categories of mounted ramming permutations. Shout out if you find a ramming exception which doesn't logically fall into one of the above.

Point of order (only peripherally related here): 6.07.3 says that a GEV can ram OR attack on it's turn, as it fires the gun while ramming which is what gives the double attack strength. This would imply that a GEV in an overrun that wants to ram may NOT fire during its fire phase. Is that correct? In any event, I suggest you put that one into the FAQ file...

[hcobb]

Is this going in the Ogre Wookie, er Wiki?

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by offsides

While that works for rams, what about the case of INF riding in a truck, which is D0. Even a D1 attack on the truck is and automatic X, but what about the INF? Do they get a die roll? And even though they're stuck together in the back of a truck, would 2 INF squads in a truck defend as a single D2, or as 2 D1s like normal overrun rules?

A strength one attack on the truck is only treated as a strength one attack on the contents. 5.11.2 makes it clear that a truck can get killed without taking out its passengers.

5.11.2 indicates that two infantry riding a superheavy count as D2, but 8.04 makes no exception to the rule about infantry being divided and neither does 8.06.1, so it seems like they'd be broken down as usual.

I'm not sure they're allowed to get out of the truck even after it gets blown to scrap...

Originally Posted by offsides

Point of order (only peripherally related here): 6.07.3 says that a GEV can ram OR attack on it's turn, as it fires the gun while ramming which is what gives the double attack strength. This would imply that a GEV in an overrun that wants to ram may NOT fire during its fire phase. Is that correct? In any event, I suggest you put that one into the FAQ file...

I am curious as to whether a GEV can ram during an overrun in its second move phase if it has already attacked. Straight read I think it's a no, but...

[offsides]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

I am curious as to whether a GEV can ram during an overrun in its second move phase if it has already attacked. Straight read I think it's a no, but...

6.07.3 states: GEVs may not ram on the second movement phase if they attacked on that turn.

I'd say that one's pretty straightforward as a no. The only question is this: If it can legally ram during an overrun, can it fire during its fire phase and then ram, or can it only do one or the other? (Since overruns occur during movement phase, and is not considered its attack for the turn, there's a little wiggle room either way. I vote either/or, but not both.)