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Old 08-17-2018, 07:40 PM   #81
Tim Kauffman
 
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Default Re: Ogre Minis Revision Issue: Mark VII

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Originally Posted by offsides View Post
And taking out the road would be the #1 priority for any unit close enough to the Mark VII to be able to do so. Remember, a unit automatically cuts the road in its hex if it chooses to attack it, and faced with an advancing Mk VII taking out your own roads is infinitely move valuable than leaving them intact. Even if it ends up being a suicide mission for some.
Agreed, but making it a QuickSet BPC road adds to the defense value of the road and couldn't be auto-cut. It would be more difficult to X requiring an attack roll.
All those units tied up attacking their own infrastructure to deny an approaching enemy the use of their road network sounds like a fun battle to me. But that would only be in a Scenario if the MARK7 were attacking, which it seems it would be better suited as a defensive unit in it's own field using it's own road network...of QuickSet BPC.

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Originally Posted by offsides View Post
Ogre weapons do not get a bonus to hit simply because they're Ogre-controlled.
The exception here is a Howitzer equipped on an OGRE. That's not a standard OGRE weapon. It could be argued it's a wash and there is no difference because the OGRE operational portion is just taking the place of the manned portion. I prefer to have a actual difference that the OGRE operated weapon is superior to a non-OGRE operated one of the same kind and this is represented in-game somehow.

Which just got me thinking...MBs and SBs can be Emplaced Weapons in a Fortification. Are they operated by a OGRE AI or manned? I'm thinking they would be manned. Which raises the question again, would MB and SB weapons be the same stats if they are equipped on an OGRE or Emplaced? This can only mean yes. There is no difference other than the OGRE AI on a OGRE is replacing the manned portion of the Emplaced OGRE weapons. Which suggests a Howitzer is the same. Maybe the extra range (if allowed) of the Howitzer is saying it's the OGRE AI that gives it this better range. It's the same Howitzer as the non-OGRE sort, just the OGRE is more effective at using it. maybe Range 8 + 2 = Range 10.

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Originally Posted by offsides View Post
I have no issue with this, but generally the only effect a CP has is that the loss of one can have negative impact. However making them a CP only adds to the likelihood of targeting strategic assets at one, which doesn't really help your argument.
Making it be a CP also really only adds to the VP for the enemy at the end of the game if it's totally fragged and they can score the Xed CP, so yeah, that's sort of meh. But if this CP gave some sort of bonus mechanic somehow, it would be more interesting.

CMs are able to be shot down and that chance increases the more weapons can be used against them. That's the question. Where and when are CMs most effectively used to get the most out of the cost spent to use them.
Will a equal number be more or less effective vs a MARK7 or against an equivalent value of other units?
Is there a better chance a MARK7 can shoot them down because it's a single target or is there a better chance an equivalent value of other units can?
I'm thinking the MARK7 has the advantage here because the CMs are forced to target a single target and all the weapons on the MARK7 attack to defend whereas an equivalent value of other units is generally more targets spread out, which reduces ranges to optimally make attacks against the incoming CMs.

This is also not considering if the MARK7 has Anti-CM jamming technology which would make it even more viable.

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Originally Posted by offsides View Post
I think the Mk VII is relegated to the annals of historical Ogre debates about whether it was a worthwhile idea or not..
Agreed. It's always fun to explore the concept though.
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Last edited by Tim Kauffman; 08-17-2018 at 08:38 PM.
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Old 08-17-2018, 08:36 PM   #82
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Default Re: Ogre Minis Revision Issue: Mark VII

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Originally Posted by Mack_JB View Post
So since it's a machine too large for the game, just create a new system to enable it? That's classic mission creep.
If it is too large for the game is debatable, as to creating a "new system" to enable it, that is exactly what real-world militaries do when possible. For example, portable runways for aircraft: https://www.airspacemag.com/multimed...fic-180951234/
Now, fast-forward to The Last War and lets see what we can come up with.

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Anything as large as a Mk. VII would crush any existing roads or bridges,
Add the rule they gain no road bonus on normal roads and auto-X bridges when crossing them. Which is partially the reason why QuickSet BPC was invented.

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Originally Posted by Mack_JB View Post
and because it's "The Last War" there isn't time, manpower, resources or funds to create new road networks from some magic material. Many of the human populations are going to be having trouble just living, much less building highway networks for machines too large to even transport.
The Nazis developed their own synthetic fuel in WW2. If there is demand enough something be done in times of war, it will be and the "cost" is usually not apparent until after the war. History is replete with examples of Countries, ect going bankrupt after wars. But the war materiel was made.

Quickset BPC isn't magic. It's BPC reformulated to be used by Engineers to create roads made of BPC.

Plenty of Tanks have been built that could not use bridges. That only becomes an issue if said tank needs to use them. If used in it's defensive role, the MARK7 would not care to even calculate them.

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At that point, anything as large as a Mk. VII just gets three or four ICBMs planted on it, the end. It's name wouldn't be 'Bollwerk', it would be "Zielpunkt".
...if the Scenario allows them and it certainly would not be the end. All those modified Howitzers and Missiles defending at range would deter such an attack handedly.

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Originally Posted by Mack_JB View Post
With 55 AU available you could easily surround the Mk. VII and it would never escape ... with good dice it would be immobile quickly.
...escape is not it's mission orientation...Program...DESTROY!

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Originally Posted by ColBosch View Post
Force it to Ram every turn, keep shooting the treads, let it get just within HWZ range and pound it to pieces.
Which means your units are all also easily within the MARK7s weapon ranges as well. Crunch and Boom! As to the Howitzers, not if the MARK7 has modified Howitzers that have longer range...which it does. :)
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Last edited by Tim Kauffman; 08-17-2018 at 08:39 PM.
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Old 08-17-2018, 09:07 PM   #83
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Default Re: Ogre Minis Revision Issue: Mark VII

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Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman View Post
If it is too large for the game is debatable, as to creating a "new system" to enable it, that is exactly what real-world militaries do when possible. For example, portable runways for aircraft:
It's a bit of a stretch to go from PSP (Pierced Steel Planking, AKA Marston Mat) to a new formulation of material though.



Quote:
Add the rule they gain no road bonus on normal roads and auto-X bridges when crossing them. Which is partially the reason why QuickSet BPC was invented.
So if it auto-X's river bridges upon crossing them, it also suffers an immediate loss of treads and a 1:1 attack on all systems by the rules presently in place, correct?

Last edited by Mack_JB; 08-17-2018 at 09:43 PM.
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Old 08-17-2018, 09:29 PM   #84
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Default Re: Ogre Minis Revision Issue: Mark VII

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Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman View Post
Quickset BPC isn't magic. It's BPC reformulated to be used by Engineers to create roads made of BPC.
I'm having a hard time accepting this idea. If you are pulling a new road material out of the air for the sole purpose of justifying a unit (with unrealistic stats, at that), that's a big red flag that your unit is broken. If it can't stand on its own, you need to go back to the drawing board.
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Old 08-17-2018, 09:45 PM   #85
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Default Re: Ogre Minis Revision Issue: Mark VII

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The Nazis developed their own synthetic fuel in WW2.
The synthetic formulations were already known, they just weren't needed until there wasn't a ready supply of natural oil. By the same token, they were also using wood gas generators to supply fuel to almost everything else though. That's a major step backwards in terms of the grinding effects of an on-going war.

Last edited by Mack_JB; 08-17-2018 at 10:54 PM.
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Old 08-17-2018, 09:46 PM   #86
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Default Re: Ogre Minis Revision Issue: Mark VII

I am not going to participate in this discussion any longer. Munchkin is a fine card game, but I have no interest in mixing it with Ogre.
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Old 08-18-2018, 04:00 PM   #87
Tim Kauffman
 
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Default Re: Ogre Minis Revision Issue: Mark VII

It was suggested that a normal road would be damaged by a MARK7 moving on it. We could say, no, it wouldn't or we could say yes it would.
If it would, just say the normal road is auto-Xed when moved on by the MARK7.

If it uses a bridge, I wouldn't say it takes damage from falling because it collapses the bridge as soon as it moves onto it basically never leaving the ground and thus would not be falling and taking damage.

The QuickSet BPC (or whatever it may be called) road is simply something that could support the MARK7 or any OGRE for that matter as a road without it being damaged.
This road I assume would only be built where the MARK7 would be defending and only as much as needed to compliment this defense.

I don't consider the MARK7 to be broken just because I'm making stuff up to justify it's existence as a viable unit any more than the Crawler Transporter that was specifically designed to transport the Space Shuttle, ect on a special made Crawlerway road at the Kennedy Space Center.

For example, at some point in the OGREverse, someone said they wanted to have a Howitzer that could move so they created the Mobile Howitzer. That should not mean the mobile platform is an indication that such a unit is some non-viable contrivance because it requires one.

My take on all this is Combine's MARK7 is what it officially is and would say the reason it was never produced, or if it was it was rarely used because such a behemoth truly was not a viable unit as an attacker. That remains as it officially is.
However, The Paneuropean Federation was primarily on the defensive and thus I would reason would have developed and fielded their own version and used it defensively to compliment their defense network. This is actually the unit I am kicking around here and it actually has never been mentioned or hinted at officially, making it the perfect unit to be introduced at some point without previous mention like other units have been.

Anyway, as always the discussion is appreciated and enjoyed. I'm not wedded to any of my suggestions, just throwing them out here as I see them and kicking them around.
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Last edited by Tim Kauffman; 08-18-2018 at 04:36 PM.
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Old 08-20-2018, 12:11 PM   #88
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Default Re: Ogre Minis Revision Issue: Mark VII

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Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman View Post
It was suggested that a normal road would be damaged by a MARK7 moving on it. We could say, no, it wouldn't or we could say yes it would.
If it would, just say the normal road is auto-Xed when moved on by the MARK7.
That seems a bit unlikely to me. GEVs and INF just need a flat, crater-free strip without obstacles to be a road. Tanks need a slightly smoother surface (smoother than train tracks).

Quote:
such a behemoth truly was not a viable unit as an attacker. That remains as it officially is.
However, The Paneuropean Federation was primarily on the defensive and thus I would reason would have developed and fielded their own version and used it defensively to compliment their defense network.
A defense may often benefit from interior lines - for example, a road network of straight roads acts as a force multiplier when reserves can quickly deploy to (or even just threaten) a broader front.

On the battlefield, you're already proposing to make up for the speed deficiency by adding special, longer-range weapons (that will be harder to resupply), and to include a road network always. Others have pointed out that two MKVs are generally a better choice at the tactical level of a game of Ogre. (Further, if the MKVII is so big that it damages roads it will eventually become a tactical liability for other units just by driving around.)

This disadvantage in speed is multiplied further at the strategic level. This beast cannot react as fast as a pair of MkVs, and cannot be in two places at once.

I could see a solid use for an M3 MkVII as an ultimate monster unit. I don't see a way to justify an M2 at either a tactical or strategic level.

Maybe it could work as a landing craft or the like - run it up on a beach as a surprise before the missiles can react, to make a beachhead. How would it compete with the MkVs or MkVI in that role?

Last edited by dwalend; 08-28-2018 at 07:20 AM.
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Old 08-27-2018, 07:04 AM   #89
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Default Re: Ogre Minis Revision Issue: Mark VII

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Originally Posted by ColBosch View Post
I am not going to participate in this discussion any longer. Munchkin is a fine card game, but I have no interest in mixing it with Ogre.
While I would certainly enjoy adding more Ogre to Munchkin, I agree with keeping Munchkin out of Ogre!

And while I totally agree with keeping the Mk VII strictly theoretical, I do enjoy at least occasionally revisiting the discussion, if only to reinforce that decision... :)
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