Examining "Once Per Day" in TFT: Solution or Problem?

[Jim Kane]

Originally Posted by Dave Crowell

I agree with Jim that if we are going to have per diem effects in TFT we need to define what "per diem" means in game mechanical terms. Is it Sunrise to sunrise, midnight to midnight, dawn to dusk? If instead "24 hour recharge time" is meant then that is what should be given in the rules.

Right! *And* with an easy way to determine on which specific combat turn a 24-hour cycled spell activates/deactivates, when transferring back to the tactical-scale from the day-scale.

JK

[Kirk]

I might be missing something in this discussion, but one thing that I see is that at one point it seems to be about spell casting on a daily basis and then discussing the duration of the spell.

Isn't that two different things?

If someone casts Trailtwister (NRBAH) it may last a day, but the spellcaster could cast another right away, and another, etc., right?

It's the limiting of casting spells to a daily cycle that is too reminiscent of DND, not necessarily the duration of whatever is cast.

Maybe I need to re-read this discussion, but just my 2 cents.

[Jim Kane]

Originally Posted by Kirk

I might be missing something in this discussion, but one thing that I see is that at one point it seems to be about spell casting on a daily basis and then discussing the duration of the spell. Isn't that two different things? If someone casts Trailtwister (NRBAH) it may last a day, but the spellcaster could cast another right away, and another, etc., right? It's the limiting of casting spells to a daily cycle that is too reminiscent of DND, not necessarily the duration of whatever is cast. Maybe I need to re-read this discussion, but just my 2 cents.

The OP should answer that for you Kirk; if not, let me know.

JK

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

Well to the first part, that was all laid-out in the OP, so that answer is there. On the second point, yes, things have to be defined properly - especially in mechanical terms, and at various scales where appropriate (i.e. missile weapon rules at the arena-level, and long-range). Right again Skarg, "at different levels and different rates of time" is also key, as until those are in place, it makes it very tough to properly go from the arena-level to the big scale campaign game, and back, with any level of continuity and flow. This is a place where TFT never made it to - due to going out of print before the product could be fully developed - and D&D has it all over us (regardless if one likes their system or not).

So to your main question, if you don't want to go back to the OP, wouldn't you agree that when it comes to defining spells, they all should have a defined beginning, middle, and end? Seems to me, it's reasonable to want to know when a thing not only turns on, but turns off.

As it stands now, using Trail-twister as an example; we know exactly when it turns on, but, once we go - time-wise - from the "combat-scale", to the "day scale", and back to the "combat scale", we do not know when it turns off - and that should not be; in my opinion.

And that problem will rear it's head with each new "per day" spell - if more are adopted. One of the beautiful things about TFT, is that it is "very low fudge" compared to it's predecessor; so why would anyone want to invite fudge back in?

It's fine to use "per diem" spell mechanics, but for Pete's Sake, let's do it right and define it fully - like most everything else in TFT; otherwise, you might as well play the other game.

I don't think that is such an unreasonable standard for us to expect out of our system.

It hasn't really been clear to me what you were talking about, and it still isn't entirely. I get the impression you think you've been clear what you mean, but I don't think it's entirely gotten through to all (any?) of us.

I went back and re-read your original post. Part of what's confusing is you say no one would want to track how much time has passed for a day to determine when a spell expires (or in the case of a theoretical new once-per-24-hours spell, when it can be cast again, but then you seem to be wanting there to be a better way to track time in TFT. I can't tell how much of your point is that it'd be annoying so we just shouldn't make a spell that can only be cast once per 24 hours (which IMO does seem a bit annoying), or if (also?) the point is that you actually want a nice way to track time precisely to be developed.

Or something else?

[Jim Kane]

Originally Posted by Skarg

...Part of what's confusing is you say no one would want to track how much time has passed for a day to determine when a spell expires (or in the case of a theoretical new once-per-24-hours spell, when it can be cast again...

What I said was that I cannot imagine any GM would want to do the bookkeeping required to keep track though 17, 280 combat-turns to accurately determing the turn when a 24-hour-cycle spell deactivates, or is ready to cast again.... Therefore, since we know on which combat-turn a 24-hour-cycle spell would be cast on, can we come up with an *easy* method which would inform the GM of precisely which combat-turn the spell would deactivate or a thing be re-charged, if the players were on the combat-time-scale at that time.

In other words, since our TFT spells tend to have a defined Beginning, Middle (effect), and End, is not reasonable we should also have an easily, yet accurate end, when defining a spell as a: 24 hour spell?
And, if your answer is: "24 hours later"; my next question would be: "On which combat turn?" because 24 hours later, we find the adventure party running from the bad-thing, hot on our heels, and we really need that spell *now*..."

So when is *now* at the 24-hour scale, when and if party is on the combat-scale?

The problem with bringing more of these 24-hour/per day spells is: while they have an accurately defined Beginning, they have an accurately defined Middle (effect), but *they have no accurately defined End at the tactical-scale*... other than "24 hours later"; and on a tactical-level game - the most critical part of TFT - that is simply not sufficient in my book, and will limit the game from growing in overall scale

No matter how big of a scale TFT ultimately reaches in terms of where we can take it, *it must tie-back to the combat-time-scale*; just as seconds, minutes, hours, days, months, years, etc. all tie-back accurately and easily in our lives; or a given MH on a labyrinth map ties back to your individual hex - same thing.

So to repeat from the OP: I believe we can come up with a better rule which matches, preserves, and subscribes to our Jacksonian "Per Usum" platform, and still achieves the goal of informing the 24 hour time period with accuracy. And, if we are going to seriously consider adopting the Vancian concept of "Once Per Day" as a rule deliniator, I feel we are obligated to also provide a matching rule for how that passage of time is accurately measured - without much "fudge".

Ease of accuracy of things like Time and Distance are critical in TFT at any scale; and I prefer a "fudge free TFT" as much as possible.

Okay now?

JK

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

Therefore, since we know on which combat-turn a 24 hour spell would be cast on, can we come up with an *easy* method which would inform the GM of precisely which combat-turn the spell would deactivate or a thing be re-charged, if the players were on the combat-time-scale at that time.

Yes. Convert to a wall clock time.

[Jim Kane]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Yes. Convert to a wall clock time.

GM rolls dice and announces from behind his new 2018 TFT GM Screen: "looking around on all vertical surfaces of the rough, cold, stone walls with the dim light cast from the soft glow of your flickering torches,... 30 turns pass as your party searches this dank, musty, expansive cavernous space... you can see nothing which resembles a clock,... however,... you do see the gleaming red-eyes, of a large, shadowy, hulking figure,.. who's distorted, lumbering form suddenly fills the open natural-archway at the far end of the cavern...you can hear it's heavy, labored breathing and deep grunting echoing into the chamber... roll for initiave boys.. it's party-time."

And *how* will you convert said real-time clock on the wall to the combat-time-scale in game-time?

JK

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

And *how* will you convert said real-time clock on the wall to the combat-time-scale in game-time?

I wouldn't say 30 turns, I'd convert immediately to minutes when not in combat.

[Jim Kane]

Originally Posted by Anthony

I wouldn't say 30 turns, I'd convert immediately to minutes when not in combat.

That's the whole point of the narrative example Anthony, *you are in combat*; and your adventure party needs that 24-hour-cycle spell to either be re-charged and ready to go again, or, they need that "lasts for one day" defensive spell cast yesterday to still be working.

So what's the combat-scale status of that 24-hour-cycle spell?

Is it active/deactivated? Is it still on? Is it off? Is it ready to cast again?

How do you know at the combat-scale?

We need an answer *now*, as the "Big Bad" is about to eat the adventure party. What's the verdict Anthony? And what is the method of your conversion process; *how* will you convert from the clock-on-the-wall to combat-time-scale?

GM rolls dice and announces from behind his new 2018 TFT GM Screen: "The Creature wins the initiative, and elects to go... first!... it gives forth a blood-curdling roar, through it's flashing, razor-sharp fangs,... it's maul, pulled open and back,... into a grotesque distortion on anything resembling the countenance of anything this side of heaven or hell,... suddenly, it charges!,... and races towards you, with a speed which defies it's towering-bulk,... as it's closes the distance between you and it, with just a few thundering strides,... and ends it's movement phase one-hex from you... you can feel the heat from it's foul and fetid breath... cascading down, into your face,... turning your stomach with it's over-powering stench,... it's your turn.... what do you do?

Is that 24-hour spell active/deactive at the combat-scale Anthony?

How do you know? What is your method?

The monster that's about to eat you would really like to know. :D

JK

PS- "30 turns" was just the time your party took to search for a clock on the wall; which they did not find - nothing more.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

That's the whole point of the narrative example Anthony, *you are in combat*; and your adventure party needs that 24-hour-cycle spell to either be re-charged and ready to go again, or, they need that "lasts for one day" defensive spell cast yesterday to still be working.

So what's the combat-scale status of that 24-hour-cycle spell?

In the vanishingly unlikely event that it matters, it's perfectly possible to convert to wall clock time on demand. Sure, it might take me a minute to do, but given that I have never seen this come up in any game system, that's a quite acceptable cost.

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

PS- "30 turns" was just the time your party took to search for a clock on the wall; which they did not find - nothing more.

Oh, I'm talking about wall-clock time for the GM. The PCs may not actually know the answer.