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Old 10-31-2016, 09:04 AM   #11
brettd
 
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Default Re: INFANTRY in OGRE...

Yeah, I've been thinking about this for forty years (I have no life, apparently).

Totally depends on the map and the role. As defender on a GEV map, the current 3:1 ratio is perfect.

On the Ogre map, I'd go with a 9:2 ratio (3 full 3-squad platoons equal 2 armor units).

One problem in pricing INF is the cost of the GEV-PC. One reason INF is less valuable is that the PC units are unreasonably expensive. The GEV-PC needs to be cheaper to make infantry better. You can't make it cost .5AU, though, as then it would be competitive with the LGEV. It would be slower but it would have better defense for the same cost.

I've long thought the GEV PC should have it's attack nerfed to make it an AP weapon with a strength of 1 and range of 2 (you wouldn't have to change the counter) and then make it cost .5AU. This would radically differentiate it from the LGEV and provide INF lovers with a more plausible set of options. Now infantry could be faster than most armor (strategically). It would also force people to use the PC as a PC - it would be good only for infantry support and transport and would have to flee when enemy armor showed up.

Using my suggested pricing, 6 full stacks of INF (18 squads) and 6 PC's would cost 7AU, instead of the current 12AU, but of course, the PC's would be much less capable armor-on-armor.

-Brett
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Old 10-31-2016, 02:49 PM   #12
Dave Crowell
 
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Default Re: INFANTRY in OGRE...

I like this suggestion Brett. PCs seem too expensive for what they do now, but making them slow LGEVs that carry a load of infantry isn't the answer.

1/2 AP does raise the question of why Ogre AP is only 1/1.
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Old 10-31-2016, 04:31 PM   #13
selenite
 
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Default Re: INFANTRY in OGRE...

Infantry are overpriced when you're in wide open areas such as the GEV map, which looks like the American midwest. If you're in an urban zone such as the East Coast of the USA or northern Europe you'd see infantry trouncing their own VP value in tanks.
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Old 11-01-2016, 07:48 AM   #14
brettd
 
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Default Re: INFANTRY in OGRE...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Crowell View Post
1/2 AP does raise the question of why Ogre AP is onl
y 1/1.
This is kinda what we have now. The abrams mg's are shorter range than the bradley's main AP weapon since abrams uses mg for defense but the bradleys weaps are for infantry support.
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Old 09-09-2018, 10:10 PM   #15
Tim Kauffman
 
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Default Re: INFANTRY in OGRE...

UNITS 3.00 states: Missiles Crawlers are worth 3 Armor Points.

CRUISE MISSILES 10.05 states: Off-Board Cruise Missiles are treated the same as Crawler based ones.

Are "Armor Points" the same as "Armor Units"?
Would Off-Board CMs cost 3 Armor Units?

Now, what happens if you have a Scenario involving Infantry and Mobile Howitzers and you want to allow 1 CM to be taken at a cost of 3 Armor Units as a option?

Does this mean you can swap 3 Infantry Points (9 squads) for 1 CM?
Or, can you swap 1 Infantry Point (3 squads) and 1 Mobile Howitzer (cost 2AU) for 1 CM?

Quote:
Originally Posted by brettd View Post
Totally depends on the map and the role. As defender on a GEV map, the current 3:1 ratio is perfect.

On the Ogre map, I'd go with a 9:2 ratio (3 full 3-squad platoons equal 2 armor units).
-Brett
Is this a good rule?

I'm iterating around with my SHELL SHOCK Scenario and want to add a CM choice option, and want to be sure I'm doing this correctly.

So, Thanks ahead of time from all the squadies fighting the ongoing Battle Of A Thousand Suns at the most brutally contested place in the world...of OGRE.

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Last edited by Tim Kauffman; 09-09-2018 at 10:15 PM.
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Old 09-09-2018, 10:35 PM   #16
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Default Re: INFANTRY in OGRE...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman View Post
UNITS 3.00 states: Missiles Crawlers are worth 3 Armor Points.

Are "Armor Points" the same as "Armor Units"?
The newest "Battle Box" Rules state three Armor Units -- so the equal to three HVY Tanks when buying units for a game. So that's 18 Victory Points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman View Post
Would Off-Board CMs cost 3 Armor Units?
I think you'd be valuing them at three units with the crawler, but the crawler alone (empty) has no real value. Good question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman View Post
Now, what happens if you have a Scenario involving Infantry and Mobile Howitzers and you want to allow 1 CM to be taken at a cost of 3 Armor Units as a option?

Does this mean you can swap 3 Infantry Points (9 squads) for 1 CM?
Or, can you swap 1 Infantry Point (3 squads) and 1 Mobile Howitzer (cost 2AU) for 1 CM?
In any game I played, I never allow INF to be traded for AU -- it makes it too easy to unbalance a game.

I'd suggest reading the opening paragraph of Section 10.0 -- saying it reduces the game down to one die roll. I've always found CM work far better in large multiple map games -- not on one map games.
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Old 09-10-2018, 12:11 AM   #17
Tim Kauffman
 
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Default Re: INFANTRY in OGRE...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack_JB View Post
In any game I played, I never allow INF to be traded for AU -- it makes it too easy to unbalance a game.
Makes sense. But I wonder if there could be some general consensus or something that could be come up with we could use regarding this topic, based on the variables of Scenario parameters, (Terrain, Units used in it) ect.
I wish there was some official formula we had access to better guide us when making Scenarios that call this into question. With some examples.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack_JB View Post
I'd suggest reading the opening paragraph of Section 10.0 -- saying it reduces the game down to one die roll. I've always found CM work far better in large multiple map games -- not on one map games.
It only reduces the game down to one die roll if there is only one target.
"Donít use them in scenarios where there is only one target, because then the game comes down to one die roll."
SHELL SHOCK is not that sort of Scenario. Due to it's nature, and the battlefields origins largely being shaped by Cruise Missiles and the over saturation of warfare leaving a lot of Craters and Rubble, having the option to use a CM instead of an equivalent value of units would (I think, pending further playtesting) make the Scenario more interesting and increase replay value.
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Old 09-10-2018, 10:52 AM   #18
TheAmishStig
 
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Default Re: INFANTRY in OGRE...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack_JB View Post

In any game I played, I never allow INF to be traded for AU -- it makes it too easy to unbalance a game.
I would almost suggest not considering the orange map when looking at game balance, because it's so unlike anything else you can do with the game and that's going to skew the numbers. For example, in "smash the CP" play, the playing area is 40% smaller [529 legal hexes for a single green map, 322 for the orange map], which when combined with only 3 terrain types (clear, crater, and ridge hexside) and that skews the cost of the Ogre in single-cybertank scenarios upwards by 12% (Mk.III Attacking) to 20% (Mk.V Attacking).

But when it comes to scenario force spreads, I agree. AU / VP are points available to spend. Infantry are AU / VP that has already been spent. The player gets to choose what types of infantry, but the points have already been allocated to infantry by the scenario designer.
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Old 09-10-2018, 11:27 AM   #19
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Default Re: INFANTRY in OGRE...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack_JB View Post
I think you'd be valuing them at three units with the crawler, but the crawler alone (empty) has no real value.
I think the rules say a cruise missile is worth two AU, and the empty crawler worth a single AU.
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Old 09-10-2018, 02:12 PM   #20
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Default Re: INFANTRY in OGRE...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert Scribe View Post
I think the rules say a cruise missile is worth two AU, and the empty crawler worth a single AU.
This is correct. They also say you can't buy an empty crawler for your forces.
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