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Old 09-11-2018, 09:01 PM   #221
Daigoro
 
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Default Re: [ATE] Farming example

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I used some data I found for Germany that had an average increase of 3.5 C for every 100m of depth. The caveat with the data was it wasn't from a strictly alpine region. 100C was reached at a depth of between 2.2 and 3.4 km deep.
Studies for alpine tunnel construction give values of 40-50℃, but this can drop a lot if there's a water flow in the rock. (A link!) (ETA: Beautiful graph p9!)
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Old 09-12-2018, 02:30 PM   #222
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Default Re: [ATE] Farming example

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Studies for alpine tunnel construction give values of 40-50℃, but this can drop a lot if there's a water flow in the rock. (A link!) (ETA: Beautiful graph p9!)
A bit cooler than I had calculated on. Most of what I wrote is still valid though. The main difference will be fungal production, I had factored in almost "free" heat for pasteurization. The dwarves will now need to find another source of heat. Maybe coal and a heat exchanger or more firewood.
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Old 09-13-2018, 12:25 AM   #223
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Default Re: [ATE] Farming example

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A bit cooler than I had calculated on. Most of what I wrote is still valid though. The main difference will be fungal production, I had factored in almost "free" heat for pasteurization. The dwarves will now need to find another source of heat. Maybe coal and a heat exchanger or more firewood.
There's still 100 heat, but as you can see from the graph it's getting beyond the same 1000m below sea level that you had found. I wonder what a similar plot looks like for a more equatorial mountain range.

What kind of flow volume do you need for the pasteurisation? Would putting heat exchangers in their forge chimney flues be enough?
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Old 09-13-2018, 03:45 AM   #224
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There's still 100 heat, but as you can see from the graph it's getting beyond the same 1000m below sea level that you had found. I wonder what a similar plot looks like for a more equatorial mountain range.

What kind of flow volume do you need for the pasteurisation? Would putting heat exchangers in their forge chimney flues be enough?
A rough guess there would be maybe 100,000 m3 of water to heat for pasturisation annually. My current thinking is the dwarves may use a fuel plant that can grow above the tree line, Miscanthus should fit. It would also serve as a fuel for cooking.
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Old 09-13-2018, 03:51 AM   #225
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A rough guess there would be maybe 100,000 m3 of water to heat for pasturisation annually. My current thinking is the dwarves may use a fuel plant that can grow above the tree line, Miscanthus should fit. It would also serve as a fuel for cooking.
Sorry, are we talking about making pastures, or pasteurising liquids?
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Old 09-13-2018, 01:26 PM   #226
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Sorry, are we talking about making pastures, or pasteurising liquids?
Pasteurising compost laden water using a grass as a fuel. The grass (miscanthus) has varieties that can grow quite large (3+ meters) and are suitable as a fuel.

[EDIT]
For full confusion, Using pasture to pasteurize pasture.
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Old 09-15-2018, 01:29 AM   #227
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Knurlkyth
Crunch
Knurlkyth is an older Dwarven city dating back before the fall of the High Elves. While rich in many metals and minerals It was not founded in the pursuit of underground resources. It instead began its life as a training ground where Dwarves and Twilight Elves developed the foundations of several martial traditions.

A well developed network of aqueducts and tunnels brings water from several sources higher qin the mountains. These feed into the six cooling shafts that largely surround the subterranean parts of the city. A percentage of the water flowing into the city is used to power the machinery that makes the residents lives easier, a central shaft houses elevators that move ore and rubble up from the depths. A second more isolated shaft draws the more pungent waste up from the city to an area of tunnels and rooms near the surface where this and other waste is processed.

High gate (terraced farms)
The waste and heated water are then used in the terraces which densely line the parts of the mountain valleys that collect the most sunshine. Grain crops cover these terraces more densely than they do on the human fields at lower elevations. About a third of the area around the high gate is under intense cultivation.
Amaranth, due to the small size of the seed amaranth does not benefit from the use of an early seed drill. For every pound of amaranth grain produced six pounds of material is collected for fungus production with another three pounds consumed by animals or used for other purposes. Another crop is grown in the more marginal areas around the high gate is miscanthus (a.k.a Silver grass or Elephant grass) Producing around eight tonnes of carbon rich material per acre miscanthus is used where wood would normally be used in places below the tree line. This is a grass that can grow to about 10 feet in height. This provides a sulphur free fuel source close to where its needed, coal would be used in areas where sulphur isn't an issue.

While the majority of the fields grow the amaranth equivalent some areas are rested in an irregular fashion and used to grow peas, greens and root crops. In terms of grain production the intensive dwarven terraced system produces forty percent as much per planted acre as more traditional wheat at lower altitudes. Without the necessity of crop rotation the land the dwarves can put under plow (roughly 1/3rd) is comparable in grain production, if not total actual food production to human farms at lower altitudes.

In general the produce from the area around the High gate is low in carbohydrates. To partially overcome this the animals farmed in the area would be bred and raised for a higher fat content. The animal fat would also be of use in the production of metal and leather items.

An area approximately 20 by 5 miles is farmed in this manner with animals being herded around the higher pastures surrounding the area as conditions permit. This results in about 20000 acres for food production. Unseasonal storms are a constant risk. This produces 4500 tons of grain

Middle gate (field)
This is a mix of more typical farming methods revolving around a typical three field or (scandinavian/northern european) four field system and the terraced system the dwarves use at higher altitudes. The techniques from higher altitudes are also used here, though they are used less intensely. For example the terraced fields could be as narrow as three or four meters near the high gate while near the middle gate they may be twenty or thirty meters wide. Many other cereal crops are possible at this altitude, presuming dwarven dietary requirements are similar to human ones carbohydrate rich crops will be important. The rubble generated by the city is also used to make higher quality roads than are normally encountered. Irrigation is well developed. Defensive structures such as retaining walls are incorporated with the agricultural infrastructure. (There is less incentive to have these defenses higher up because armies from low altitudes are put off when they start coughing up their lungs)

An area twice the size of the high gate system is cultivated. Oats, barley and pasture account for most of the land area though other crops are grown in rotation. The intense infrastructure allow the selected crops to be grown slightly better than a comparable human farming community at lower altitude. (15-20%). This is the result of the many years of work that has been put into the originally poor area.

Lower gate
This entrance houses a small community of dwarves who both trade dwarven products and provide the city with wood and timber. They source the wood from the forest surrounding the river near the entrance. This is taken by water to a system of locks inside the lower gate that lift the wood to the mills within the city itself. Not much is grown around the lower gates due to the semi-regular flooding, this leaves visitors with the impression that the dwarves have no surface agriculture.

High altitude forestry
Timber of a very high quality is produced slowly at several locations around the high and middle gates. This is an irrigated forest that grows at least half as fast as it would if it was at lower altitude. The wood produced is 10-30% stronger and denser however.

Farming within the mountain
The resources harvested from around the high gate allow for up to 24000 tonnes of fungus to be produced. Assuming half of this is used for lightning and medicine this leaves 12000 tonnes for consumption. 2000 tonnes is used for puffball flour production resulting in 120 tonnes of flour additive. 2000 tonnes are probably wasted or fed to “storage” animals. This leaves 8000 tonnes for food, however assuming a dietary maximum of 40% fungal sources each dwarf consumes not much more that 300 lbs per annum. As a result production capacity isn't the restricting factor here, maximum consumption is. They can easily grow more fungi than they need.

Depending on the exact mycocultural requirements raw materials (wood and hay/straw) are brought into the mountain where they are either pasteurized with boiling water or used as animal bedding in shallow well ventilated cave/shed systems. This enriches the material with nitrogen and begins the decomposition process, the material is then heated to sterilize it before the spores from the desired fungi are added. Once the mushroom crop is harvested the growing medium is composted and added back into the soil. It is also easy to stockpile the growing medium in dry form for sieges and other similar locked in situations.

Heating the growing medium before the spores are added may use recycled heat from any smelters and forges if there is sufficient energy remaining to carry the smoke and fumes out of the city. A very deep borehole might also serve as a source of extremely hot water. Alternately firewood or dried miscanthus could be used as a heat source. Coal could be utilized but care must be taken to keep the smoke and residue separate from the fungi.

Animals
The High Gate terraces produce little in the way of carbohydrates, this means animal production will be limited. Sheep, goats and cattle can be grazed on pasture and forested areas around the city. They are brought inside for short periods of time in the depths of winter when even the pastures at comparatively low altitudes are snowed under. Poultry are found in the very few farming villages on the surface. This is due to a lack of light reducing the laying capability. The manure from this birds is very useful for mycoculture however. Pigs (or other omnivores) are kept near the living areas of the dwarves where they are used as both a food storage system and a means of recycling waste food. Fungi fodder crops are grown for them but they need a more varied diet than mushrooms alone. (The fungi are basically used to bulk out their diet)

Switches
Aquaculture
The need to provide carbohydrates for omnivorous species such as tilapia means they are not an attractive option for inside the cooling boreholes. However species like Grass Carp would likely do well in the existing irrigation system. Without special attention they might add up to five percent to the food output of the terraced system. If fields are flooded to allow them to eat the weeds and remnants of (primarily) pea and other crops larger numbers could be supported. This would require crops to be planted as fish food for other parts of the year. Some hybrid systems with fish in rice paddies add 30% to the total food output.

Mining for fertilizer
It is possible that the dwarves with their focus on minerals may develop the knowledge of basic mineral fertilizers. If so yields may be up by 20%. The biggest change this would make is how fast a section of poor mountain soil could be turned into a fertile field.

Insects
Another possibility is using insects to turn waste plant and fungal material into protein and fat for carnivorous or omnivorous animals, this would allow for subterranean aquaculture, larger pork production and increased poultry numbers.

Depending on the setting this agricultural systems would support a secretive dwarven population of 5-10,000, a self sufficient population of 10,000-20,000 or a thriving population of 25,000+ who trade for food with other groups.

This one just keeps getting away from me. This was written rather piecemeal as well so I may have missed a couple of things.
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Old 09-22-2018, 12:29 AM   #228
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Default Re: [ATE] Farming example

Sitting on the to do list.
- Cloud cities.
- Super grim global warming, Future history.
- TL 9 or 10 home stead.
- A long time after the end.
- Elves.

Anything else anyone wants on the list or anything I've missed?
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Old 09-23-2018, 08:29 PM   #229
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Default Re: [ATE] Farming example

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Sitting on the to do list.
- Cloud cities.

(SNIP)

Anything else anyone wants on the list or anything I've missed?
I'll lobby for this one, as it's immediately useful to me, for any number of sessions of my existing game.

In today's session, the group decided they would have a lumber company in Nieuw Haarlem tow four large floating trees to the vicinity of the city, lash them together in stable configuration, and moor the structure to the city's arkenstone platform.

They estimate that will give them space approximately equal to the gridiron of an American football field, or the space between the goal lines and the touch lines of a Rugby League pitch.

It won't be as usable as the fields, though, because of all the branches that extend upwards to support the canopy and bouyancy bladders. However, there are two other "treehouse" platforms located within a mile of Nieuw Haarlem that the lumber company helped build, so it's been done, before.

The towing and lashing will cost $80,000 in 1919 currency (about $1.1 million in 2015 dollars), and they'll get a discount because they'll accompany the lumber dirigible as the (much needed) security detail. Otherwise it would have cost them $100,000 in 1919 currency.

Depending on how fancy they get on the housing designs, it could add another 50-100 percent to that cost.

The towing and the initial lashing will cost them everything they have and can trade, and will certainly require they open a line of credit with the Nieuw Haarlem Company Bank.

They've already said they may need to pop back home and do some more trading in 1919, to pay for everything.
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Old 09-23-2018, 10:33 PM   #230
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Default Re: [ATE] Farming example

Cloud cities early thoughts
The stability of the climate is a problem for plants, the plants from Earth that can handle that climatic stability (and the increased pathogens associated with it) are generally tropical species, but they might find it a bit cool at higher altitudes. So higher altitude tropical crops or low altitude tropical crops that can handle shade.
The overlap between these species and New York availability is an issue. (Potatoes, pineapples so far)
Tomatoes require a day night cycle so they are out.
Perhaps larger amounts of chemicals will be required.

False bananas and bananas might do well but are hard to justify.

Space limitations would seem to indicate a gardened, layered approach, mixed cropping at the least.

Rain plus poor soil depth means nitrogen deficiency is going to be a critical issue.

Bamboo looks too useful to pass up.

I could see a widely spaced group of tree trunks supporting vines on frames in the gaps.

Brassica do well under continuous light.
Potatoes kept in darkness 6 hours of so a day should work, maybe with poultry manure to provide nitrogen.

Anyway I'll move this to the front of the queue.
[Edit] the more modern portal could use clear plastic greenhouses for temperature regulation.
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