Telekinesis - weapon attack at long range - penalties?

[Maz]

Uhm. Actually. Reading up on the rules. It doesn't really say that you could pick up a sword and fence with it, using TK. Is that not normally a part of the TK ability?

It only list TK punch/grab. Or TK-throw.


I have allowed someone with TK to use a knife, using Knife skill to hit with it.

[starslayer]

Also remember that by default telekenisis has very short range. To use it over distance requires an increased range enhancement.

To use weapons may require the animation enhancement. To use it without having to take constant concentrates may require the a duration enhancement.

Assuming you have the right enhancements to make all this happen; yes TK has no range penalties beyond 'can see'. You only start taking range penalties once it leaves your 'tk grip' control.

[Maz]

Originally Posted by starslayer

Also remember that by default telekenisis has very short range. To use it over distance requires an increased range enhancement.

This is just a 20% enhancement to double range to 20y. It's not that expensive.

Originally Posted by starslayer

To use weapons may require the animation enhancement.

May? Yes? Why?

[starslayer]

Originally Posted by Maz

May? Yes? Why?

It will depend on the GM's interpretation of the rules:

The rules say that TK can:

Ready maneuver to pick up an object;
Move maneuver to lift and carry it;
Attack maneuver to throw it, or to
grab or strike directly;

BUT the listed example has it aiming and covering while holding a gun, and attacking with it, even though doing more with an object beyond throwing it is not a listed option.

[a humble lich]

I would say the rules fairly clear say you can use TK to wield a weapon.

"You can manipulate distant objects just as if you were grasping them in a pair of hands"

As using a sword is something that you can do when grasping it in a pair of hands, I'd say you should be able to do it with TK. It is true in the passage starslayer quoted doesn't include using a melee weapon as an example. However, just before that passage it says you may perform one standard maneuver, and just following that passage it say "and so on." I feel using a melee weapon counts as "so on."

As to the original question, if there was a character who purchased long range telekinesis, I would assess some sort of range penalties if they wanted to use it to attack someone with a melee weapon at extreme range, but what those penalties should be I don't know. I know by the rules in TK there are no range penalties, but if someone wants to fence with an opponent a mile a way I can see that being difficult.

[AlexanderHowl]

What happens if your target is between you and the object that you are controlling (as in, you move the object behind your target)? Should you not suffer a penalty for a blind attack for not being able to see where the weapon is relative to the target?

[Maz]

Here's the rules I ended up going with in my game:

• You can use TK to wield a weapon exactly as it where yourself who used it, but at a distance. So you can make thrust or swing attacks and so on. You can even parry with it.
  
• You use your own skill to use it.
  
• You take a concentration maneuver. And the weapon then take a normal action: Move, Attack, Move&Attack or even All-out Attack.
  It follows the same rules as everyone else for those maneuvers. So to Attack, the weapon can only take a Step. If it makes an All-out attack both you and it has no defense.
• If attacked, the weapon can Parry or dodge, using your dodge.
  
• You have range penalties to the target, measured from you to the target.
  If the target is obscured or out of vision from you, then you suffer the normal penalties for attacking when you can't see the target.

----


Stealthy Backstab. (My player wants to be try to sneak a knife behind enemies and stab them in the back, so I made some general guidelines for that)


You can attempt to move the weapon unseen. This requires an IQ-based Stealth-check. You have the normal penalties for moving and Stealthing. -5 for moving faster than a step per sec. -5 if there are no real hiding places.

On an opposed roll (like in combat time) the target have a penalty to spot the weapon depending on it's size. -4 for Reach C weapons. -2 for Reach 1. +0 for reach 2.



We have yet to playtest these rules. But it will likely come up already next game.

[starslayer]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

What happens if your target is between you and the object that you are controlling (as in, you move the object behind your target)? Should you not suffer a penalty for a blind attack for not being able to see where the weapon is relative to the target?

Yes, but this is already covered under 'unable to see target' and 'blindness'. I don't think anyone is debating these points.

[starslayer]

Originally Posted by Maz

Here's the rules I ended up going with in my game:

• You can use TK to wield a weapon exactly as it where yourself who used it, but at a distance. So you can make thrust or swing attacks and so on. You can even parry with it.
  
• You use your own skill to use it.
  
• You take a concentration maneuver. And the weapon then take a normal action: Move, Attack, Move&Attack or even All-out Attack.
  It follows the same rules as everyone else for those maneuvers. So to Attack, the weapon can only take a Step. If it makes an All-out attack both you and it has no defense.
• If attacked, the weapon can Parry or dodge, using your dodge.
  
• You have range penalties to the target, measured from you to the target.
  If the target is obscured or out of vision from you, then you suffer the normal penalties for attacking when you can't see the target.

----


Stealthy Backstab. (My player wants to be try to sneak a knife behind enemies and stab them in the back, so I made some general guidelines for that)


You can attempt to move the weapon unseen. This requires an IQ-based Stealth-check. You have the normal penalties for moving and Stealthing. -5 for moving faster than a step per sec. -5 if there are no real hiding places.

On an opposed roll (like in combat time) the target have a penalty to spot the weapon depending on it's size. -4 for Reach C weapons. -2 for Reach 1. +0 for reach 2.



We have yet to playtest these rules. But it will likely come up already next game.

I agree with most of your assessments, however since TK is an IQ based capability I would make any skill checks switch to being based on IQ.

IE if you have knife at DX+4 and you are wielding a knife with TK it becomes IQ+4.

I am also unsure on your stealthy back-stab, I wonder if it might be better covered by simply using the existing rules for surprise attack, behind the back attack, and dirty trick.

[Anaraxes]

You might also introduce TK-based versions of combat skills. All that physical training you did to learn footwork and how to use your melee weapon does you little good when you're animating a dancing sword. And to qualify as a combat skill, rather than just bashing someone with a three-pound metal object that happens to be sword-shaped, would take more focused training and practice than just the ability to pick up a sword with your mental "hand", just as it takes more than just the ability to pick up a sword with your physical hand.

A character might learn both, of course. And a GM might choose to let one default to the other at some penalty judged suitable.

If you're using Skills For Everyone so that there's a TK skill, you could also make the combat skills Techniques of the TK skill.