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Old 06-18-2018, 10:46 AM   #21
Kelly Pedersen
 
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Default Re: Pulp Hero concept

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Originally Posted by Lameth View Post
no, nope, no need, I see both your points. The feel of pulp magic is not about the Doctor Stranges and Doctor Fates, but maybe more the John Constantines of the world or Mandrakes. Not world shaking fireballs and time alterations, but more simple conjurations, charms, and rituals. Right?
Yup, pretty much. I'd say there's a pretty strong streak of "physical prowess trumps intellectual prowess" running through a lot of the pulp source material too, which also suggests that whatever magic system you use should lean heavily on subtle effects like illusions (which can't stop a determined hero), mind control or influence (which a strong-willed hero can overcome), generic "bad luck" penalties (which a skilled or lucky hero can counter), and, as I mentioned, "just die" effects (which a highly-resistant hero can ignore).
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Old 06-18-2018, 11:35 AM   #22
Lameth
 
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Default Re: Pulp Hero concept

Ok then a follow up, regarding sensibilities in the Pulp Hero atmosphere. As I said I truly love the Planetary Comic and my aim is that sort of theme and feel. The issue comes with in the world that Planetary inhabits there are very public supers with capes and symbols on their chest, but that is not the look and feel
of the world I was going for. I was more going with a hybrid.

My feel is a modern game, with some advanced technologies due to fast tracked tech and Corporations akin to early cyberpunk with advanced tech. This allowed moon landing to happen a decade before and now allows for moon cities and colonization of the mars to a limited degree. Long march vessels can make the trip to mars in around 25 days. Some moderate and minor advancements in tech level for those that afford it to a TL9 or so.

I want a feel of wonder, weirdness, intrigue, and mystery. A world that was advanced in some areas, but mostly as it is today. The world has a secret history that is lost or forgotten. Whole areas of the world are not found or hidden away. Lost civilizations exist and could hold secrets that will haunt the current world. Monsters of legend or elder things are locked away or hiding, waiting in the shadows. Mad cults seek the end of the world. Crazy scientists are hiding in their lairs working on black sciences. Shadowed vigilantes stalk the night. Minor Psionics are slowly awaking in some people on the world for unknown reason for decades, and some Corps and governments have formed groups or watch dogs for this. There is a world that is right outside the view of others and sometimes they see a glimpse of it. This may be the cop that has to clean up the crime scene from a local masked vigilante that likes to use pulp laser pistols and a jet pack, or those at a local coffee shop got to see for a brief second a battle between a woman wielding telekinesis and a man in a battle suit, before they both flew off, before the cops or government got there.

The world once had supers akin to pulp heroes that where around in the 1920's and 30's and fought during WW1 and WW2, but due to various issues they where pushed back in the world and disappeared after the late 60's or so. They would pop up from time to time but became mostly a thing of the past or urban legends, but in truth they went underground to hide from the government and corps, or maybe even something more powerful, not sure yet. Or maybe a whole forgotten history of supers and heroes, lost to all?Ideas?

How would the world react to pulp heroes in the modern age slowly coming back? the Mandrakes, the Doc Savage, the Spirit, etc. Or even more potent ones like real TK psionics or control over metal via magnetism powers? What would the sensibilities be for the somewhat normal world to suddenly see a battle of a sword wielding man in armor with something that looked like a cross between a squid and a shark in downtown LA on camera, at least until the man ran away after it was killed? And this is after 60 years or more or no open super or strange activity.

And how about legalities? That pulp hero with a old laser gun taken off a mad Nazi scientist in WW2, its a one of a kind, how do you get a permit for that, or not even bother to? Or board a plan with it?

Last edited by Lameth; 06-18-2018 at 01:45 PM.
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Old 06-18-2018, 11:51 AM   #23
namada
 
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Default Re: Pulp Hero concept

For "mysterious" magic, I feel you need to throw out magic systems completely, and instead use magic guidelines. Ever since I read Fantasy Hero and it's "Designing Magic Systems" section, that's all I've ever used. Reading that section of that book is something I highly recommend.

Essentially, all magic is simply bought as an advantage with the limitations of Magical and Requires Skill Roll. Beyond that, the spell could have any other limitations its designer desires, but must have -80% of limitations. This means you'll never know what your opponent is bringing to the table with their spell, which really plays up that mysterious factor.

With certain settings where I'm going for different flavors of magic, I'll require other limitations as well, even having multiple sets of guidelines for multiple styles of magic (Elf Magic Guidelines, Dwarf Magic Guidelines, etc.), but at the very least, I use those two listed above. I've come to dislike every other magic system GURPS 4E provides. This method is far more flexible and adaptable to different campaigns than any highly rigid system like those provided in GURPS Magic and GURPS Sorcery.
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Old 06-18-2018, 06:54 PM   #24
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Default Re: Pulp Hero concept

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Or allow them to buy up to ten levels of DR (Tough Skin, -40%) to represent their exceptional toughness, moxy, grit, etc. While it would cost up to 30 CP, it would allow pulp heroes to exchange punches for dozens of rounds without suffering anything more major than blunt trauma, and it would allow them to be shot multiple times without requiring months of healing. It would also reflect the conventionals of the setting without making them as massive as a small elephant.
DR with the Ablative or Semi-Ablative modifier is a good alternative too.


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...
Next, we have Hnd/SR. The rocket pack doesn't seem like a particularly easy device to control - the protagonist has some early issues, and it's mentioned that it killed a few test pilots, I believe. However, it does seem possible to control without too much trouble (the villain seems pretty confident in doing so to escape), and you don't want to make it impossible for a PC without super-high levels in Piloting to steer. So, I'd give it -1/0 for this, raising to -0/1 once the finned helmet is available.
I'd go a different way on this stat. It seems very maneuverable but it has killed operators. So I'd say give it a higher Hnd and lower SR, like say say 2/0.

Edit: I just checked UT231. Looks like they might have shared my thinking.

Last edited by Donny Brook; 06-18-2018 at 07:11 PM.
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Old 06-18-2018, 08:14 PM   #25
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: Pulp Hero concept

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Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
Yup, pretty much. I'd say there's a pretty strong streak of "physical prowess trumps intellectual prowess" running through a lot of the pulp source material too, which also suggests that whatever magic system you use should lean heavily on subtle effects like illusions (which can't stop a determined hero), mind control or influence (which a strong-willed hero can overcome), generic "bad luck" penalties (which a skilled or lucky hero can counter), and, as I mentioned, "just die" effects (which a highly-resistant hero can ignore).
I really like the idea of Energy Accumulation for Path Magic and Effect Shaping for Book Magic in pulp campaigns. I think that the heroes should have access to Path Magic and the villains should have access to Book Magic (it gives them a concrete difference in capabilities). It also work from a more flexible version of psychic powers, with Energy Accumulation representing psychic energy and Effect Shaping representing force of will.
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Old 06-19-2018, 10:07 AM   #26
Lameth
 
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Default Re: Pulp Hero concept

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I really like the idea of Energy Accumulation for Path Magic and Effect Shaping for Book Magic in pulp campaigns. I think that the heroes should have access to Path Magic and the villains should have access to Book Magic (it gives them a concrete difference in capabilities). It also work from a more flexible version of psychic powers, with Energy Accumulation representing psychic energy and Effect Shaping representing force of will.
I'm not a fan of doing two separate ways for the world, to me it does not make sense. Cosmology is cosmology, no matter who uses it. right?

on magic....One of the PCs is asking for healing. The PC is a woman of the world type like Doc Savage so I thought of the theme of "learned various mystical techniques from a healer that healed her years before. Maybe making it Path Magic, Path of Health, with Effect Shaping to simulate the idea of eastern medicine to shape reality by pure will power? Or maybe ancient Egyptian magic learned from a priestess of Hathor or Isis? Or a using mandalas and mantras as a Buddhist healing ritual? Or maybe Hermetic Magic ritual? what do you think fits the theme and overall feeling of pulp action heroes ?
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Old 06-19-2018, 10:24 AM   #27
Kelly Pedersen
 
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Default Re: Pulp Hero concept

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on magic....One of the PCs is asking for healing. The PC is a woman of the world type like Doc Savage so I thought of the theme of "learned various mystical techniques from a healer that healed her years before. Maybe making it Path Magic, Path of Health, with Effect Shaping to simulate the idea of eastern medicine to shape reality by pure will power?
Consider using the Path of Health, but rather than using Ritual Magic as the core skill, use Esoteric Medicine. In general, I feel that's an interesting approach for most "pulp" magic - make the core skill different for each Path, appropriate to the path. One of the tropes I tend to associate with pulp is the idea of cinematic skill being able to accomplish supernatural results.

In fact, that could be an interesting distinction between Paths and Books to use - each Path is based on a different core skill, while Books all default to Ritual Magic. So when you learn "magic" as such, you get potential access to a wide variety of weird effects, but you have to learn the ones in the books you find. Whereas if you learn an "esoteric" skill, you get access to a specialized body of magic that helps that skill, but you can't learn different magic without learning a totally new trick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lameth
Or maybe ancient Egyptian magic learned from a priestess of Hathor or Isis? Or a using mandalas and mantras as a Buddhist healing ritual? Or maybe Hermetic Magic ritual? what do you think fits the theme and overall feeling of pulp action heroes ?
Honestly, all of these probably fit. Pulp was not generally very good at respectfully and accurately portraying non-Western cultures and religious practices. It would be entirely in keeping with the genre to have a character's mystical practices to be a mishmash of several cultures who were in reality separated by thousands of miles and years.
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Old 06-19-2018, 10:57 AM   #28
Lameth
 
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Default Re: Pulp Hero concept

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Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
Consider using the Path of Health, but rather than using Ritual Magic as the core skill, use Esoteric Medicine. In general, I feel that's an interesting approach for most "pulp" magic - make the core skill different for each Path, appropriate to the path. One of the tropes I tend to associate with pulp is the idea of cinematic skill being able to accomplish supernatural results.

In fact, that could be an interesting distinction between Paths and Books to use - each Path is based on a different core skill, while Books all default to Ritual Magic. So when you learn "magic" as such, you get potential access to a wide variety of weird effects, but you have to learn the ones in the books you find. Whereas if you learn an "esoteric" skill, you get access to a specialized body of magic that helps that skill, but you can't learn different magic without learning a totally new trick.



Honestly, all of these probably fit. Pulp was not generally very good at respectfully and accurately portraying non-Western cultures and religious practices. It would be entirely in keeping with the genre to have a character's mystical practices to be a mishmash of several cultures who were in reality separated by thousands of miles and years.


Ok so maybe like this:

Path of Health, Core Skill, Esoteric Medicine. Portrayed as pressure points, massage, burning incense, drawing mandalas or hand gestures in the form of mandalas, and acupuncture. Effect Shaping.

Then maybe give her Occultism as a core skill, that may allow her to learn "Book Magic" later on and allow books to be purchased separately as individual rituals and spells. Effect Shaping.

Maybe also allow "mystical chi martial art abilities" Core skill Body Control, and allow various Paths for self healing in mediation, going without food for weeks, ceasing to breath, feigning death, toughing their own flesh from damage, ect. Effect Shaping.
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Old 06-19-2018, 11:09 AM   #29
Kelly Pedersen
 
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Default Re: Pulp Hero concept

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Then maybe give her Occultism as a core skill, that may allow her to learn "Book Magic" later on and allow books to be purchased separately as individual rituals and spells. Effect Shaping.
I'd be cautious of using Occultism as a Core skill for something as broad as "all Books" - the Path/Book system balanced around using a Very Hard skill (Ritual Magic) as the core skill, and an easier one might throw things off. I think it's reasonable to use an easier skill if it only covers a single Path or Book, but all Books is just a bit too broad.

However, you could create a new skill, at Very Hard, that covered both ritual magic and standard Occultism uses. Call it "True Occultism" or "True Secrets of the World" or whatever you want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lameth
Maybe also allow "mystical chi martial art abilities" Core skill Body Control, and allow various Paths for self healing in mediation, going without food for weeks, ceasing to breath, feigning death, toughing their own flesh from damage, ect. Effect Shaping.
Yeah, Body Control would be good. I'd allow Meditation as the core skill for this too - lord knows Meditation needs more uses. I'd make this a single Path, and put various rituals under it (possibly tweaking some to fit better). You could call it the Path of Inner Balance.
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Old 06-19-2018, 11:35 AM   #30
Lameth
 
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Default Re: Pulp Hero concept

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I'd be cautious of using Occultism as a Core skill for something as broad as "all Books" - the Path/Book system balanced around using a Very Hard skill (Ritual Magic) as the core skill, and an easier one might throw things off. I think it's reasonable to use an easier skill if it only covers a single Path or Book, but all Books is just a bit too broad.

However, you could create a new skill, at Very Hard, that covered both ritual magic and standard Occultism uses. Call it "True Occultism" or "True Secrets of the World" or whatever you want.



Yeah, Body Control would be good. I'd allow Meditation as the core skill for this too - lord knows Meditation needs more uses. I'd make this a single Path, and put various rituals under it (possibly tweaking some to fit better). You could call it the Path of Inner Balance.
Yes, but the rules are built on pluses and negatives and these are derived from correspondences, times, special days, etc. If you are mimicking "eastern mystical martial art medicine" how would you gain the bonuses? Maybe applying special incense? or maybe meditation first and get a synergy bonus from it? forming a mandala with your hands [ala Doctor strange] first, maybe another few pluses? using quality needles? etc?
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