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Old 03-14-2018, 09:32 AM   #61
Kromm
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Default Re: Difficult monsters

Well, "The only defense is a dodge combined with a dive or retreat to leave the hex." So there's always the option to dodge at +3 for getting the heck out of there. Acrobatics and Defense Bonus come into play normally – you can shove back the water with a shield or "surf the wave" or whatever to make this more likely to succeed. While that's not a sure-fire thing, it's a pretty good defense for most delvers (most of the sample characters in the set would have better-than-even odds).

But yeah . . . equal numbers would be risky, because water elementals are very hard to destroy, meaning they'll hang around trying to drown people every turn. There's a good reason why Against the Rat-Men sets encounter size at (group size)/2: That leaves half the PCs free to bang on the elementals even if the elementals manage to engulf one PC apiece.
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Old 03-14-2018, 09:38 AM   #62
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Default Re: Difficult monsters

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Well, "The only defense is a dodge combined with a dive or retreat to leave the hex." So there's always the option to dodge at +3 for getting the heck out of there. Acrobatics and Defense Bonus come into play normally – you can shove back the water with a shield or "surf the wave" or whatever to make this more likely to succeed. While that's not a sure-fire thing, it's a pretty good defense for most delvers (most of the sample characters in the set would have better-than-even odds).
Am I right in thinking that 2 water elementals converging on one PC would make the 2nd engulf a sure thing though?
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Old 03-14-2018, 09:47 AM   #63
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Default Re: Difficult monsters

Since you can only retreat once seems to make #2 elemental success assured
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Old 03-14-2018, 10:00 AM   #64
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Am I right in thinking that 2 water elementals converging on one PC would make the 2nd engulf a sure thing though?
Yep. That's a hosing just waiting to happen. Unless the PC in question has second defense equivalent to a retreat, like the Blink spell.
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Old 03-14-2018, 10:27 AM   #65
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My feeling is that water elementals are best used in quantities no greater than (group size)/2 unless most or all of the group (1) has Move 7+, and can always stay out of close combat, (2) has a reliable second retreat in the form of Blink or similar, (3) has effective ST + Lifting ST + Wrestling bonus of 24+ so breaking free from a two-handed pin on the first try is viable, or (4) doesn't have to breathe for some reason (a Breathe Water spell, available to clerics, druids, and wizards, makes water elementals far less scary . . . and Hold Breath isn't bad, either). High-powered groups will probably have one of the above for all members and possibly two or more of the above for some members.

All of the above might instead be arrived at via magic items. This may let a group built on fewer points deal with water elementals. Of course, such a group is still effectively high-powered.

And then there are creative solutions for those who have the right spells. A wizard with the Flight or Walk on Air spell can stay out of reach. Hinder can make water elementals on land plodding and useless. Dehydrate is just nasty on water elementals.
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Old 03-14-2018, 10:38 AM   #66
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And then there are creative solutions for those who have the right spells. A wizard with the Flight or Walk on Air spell can stay out of reach. Hinder can make water elementals on land plodding and useless. Dehydrate is just nasty on water elementals.
Does Vulnerability override Diffuse?
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Old 03-14-2018, 11:36 AM   #67
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Does Vulnerability override Diffuse?
No, but Unliving/Homogeneous/Diffuse affects damage from actual physical attacks. Those traits have no effect on direct injury. Thus, Dehydrate – being direct injury – ignores Diffuse as a matter of course. And Vulnerability makes Dehydrate twice as nasty here.
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Old 03-14-2018, 12:29 PM   #68
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Unless the PC in question has second defense equivalent to a retreat, like the Blink spell.
I’m guessing that’s just an unfortunate choice of words because the topic is completely different, and Blink can put you out of reach of further attacks from the same opponent (which retreat specifically can’t).
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Old 03-14-2018, 12:29 PM   #69
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No, but Unliving/Homogeneous/Diffuse affects damage from actual physical attacks. Those traits have no effect on direct injury. Thus, Dehydrate – being direct injury – ignores Diffuse as a matter of course. And Vulnerability makes Dehydrate twice as nasty here.
Huh. There's a change between GURPS Magic and DF I didn't notice.

Honestly, it seems like a bad change, because it means the spell cannot be built as a power. Dehydrate should just be a toxic affliction (toxic attacks and diffuse are a weird issue anyway, because most toxic effects would plausibly ignore liquid types of diffuse).
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Old 03-14-2018, 01:05 PM   #70
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I’m guessing that’s just an unfortunate choice of words because the topic is completely different, and Blink can put you out of reach of further attacks from the same opponent (which retreat specifically can’t).
I'm not saying "Blink is just a retreat." I'm saying that in the specific case where only a retreat will do, you normally get just one, but Blink is one way to get the equivalent of a second retreat, because it lets you clear out of the hex. Context is everything, and in this case, the context is "leaving the hex that has a water elemental in it, trying to drown you."
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