09-17-2017, 10:04 PM | #21 |
Join Date: Mar 2013
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Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?
When you say 'skill-25 opponents', is it fair to parse that as 'Boss monsters'? Because if so, there are a lot of different types of Boss monsters and many of them are resistant or immune to a wide variety of save-or-die spells.
If you define 'Boss monster' as 'highly skilled human-type opponent with no particular defence against magic', well sure, you're going to run into problems with PC wizards. I suspect that you're going to have to do more than switch magic systems though if you want to really nerf save-or-die spells. |
09-17-2017, 10:20 PM | #22 | |
Join Date: Sep 2017
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Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?
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I'm working on a solution at the moment, and would like some advice/feedback, if possible. |
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09-17-2017, 10:36 PM | #23 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
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Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?
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What do the words "experienced" and "powerful" really mean? In a game, they mean more abilities and more stuff. So the resistance to "I win!" spells is essentially a function of traits on the character sheet (Magic Resistance, Mental Strength, Mind Shield, Will, etc.) and stuff on the equipment sheet (Magic Resistance and Strengthen Will items, Moly amulets, and so on). There's nothing inherent in having lots of character points that protects against any effect. Somebody with 300 points could opt to buy Accounting at IQ+74 . . . it would be silly, but unless the GM ruled against it, it would be legit. Naturally, that wouldn't help at all against spells – or for that matter swords, bullets, psionics, poison, or cat scratches. This makes GURPS unlike games where "level" is a quality unto itself, granting better abilities in a package. In effect, the GM has to step in and say, "With this many points, shouldn't you think about shoring up a couple of glaring weaknesses?" Of course, the GM is free to award a Level-Up package in lieu of unrestricted character points from time to time. For instance, after earning 50 points, the next 50 points might have to buy DX+1 [20] (to get better at combat), HT+1 [10] to be better at survival and resistance), Will+1 [5] (to better resist mental control), and Enhanced Dodge 1 [15] (to get out of the way of attacks and traps). It would be chunky and it would frustrate certain players, but it would ensure that survival is pegged to points. You could of course smooth it out: "After your first 5 points, the next 5 will be given to you as +1 to Will. After 10 more points, the next 10 will be given to you as +1 to HT. After another 15 points, you'll earn 15 points as Enhanced Dodge 1. And after a further 20 points, the 20 that follow will be awarded as +1 to DX." But ultimately, the strength and weakness of point-based games is that things don't develop in lockstep as in level-based games. This means that it's possible to be really good at hitting, damaging, defending, sneaking, or whatever but lousy at resisting magic.
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Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com> GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games My DreamWidth [Just GURPS News] |
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09-17-2017, 10:42 PM | #24 | |
Join Date: Mar 2013
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Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?
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But that's a trivial observation; we can as easily have an 'adventurer equivalent' who is a wizard themselves and now the PC fighter loses. Or any one of a number of monsters that are strong against wizards and weak against fighters. |
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09-17-2017, 10:44 PM | #25 | |||||||
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Location: 100 hurricane swamp
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Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?
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Also... not necessarily by me, but for reasons different than you suspect. I simply loathe D&D in all it's forms, so... yeah, 5e isn't better than OD&D 1974... as it's still D&D (with the old cows of level and class still sacred in the rules). Quote:
Path and Book are just terms of 'art', Path is more often used for styles that are thematically straight (like the Path of Fire, which is all fire spells; or the Path of Nature which would have some animal spells and maybe a few weather control spells), and Book for styles that have themes that are eclectic and weird (Like the Book of Andy Griffith which has detecting spells, a few charm and calm spells, and a few knowledge spells - frex). RPM, or Ritual Path Magic, is Energy Accumulation from GURPS Thaumatology given a tightening up. It is both 'quick' and slow, and Incantations (the DF version) works very similarly to D&D spell slot style (the Incanter has to prepare his spells in advance, but if given time* in the field he can still perform standard rituals, they can take as little as 5 seconds or as long as days). * Or a whole lot of skill or a a few 10 point advantages and some skill. Not gonna lie, Incanters can be even more broken than standard DF Wizards. Quote:
And no, that 'henchmen' level Apprentice isn't 'save or sucking' the 250+ points Knight with an "average roll", at least not without the Knight failing his roll. Quote:
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09-17-2017, 10:47 PM | #26 | |
GURPS Line Editor
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?
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Think of magic as a technology of war and realize that the technology of troop-selection, training, and equipment will perforce evolve alongside it. I'd imagine that the average garrison would consist of a bunch of guys with, say, 1d-1 levels of Magic Resistance, none of them feeble (minimum HT 12), led by a forceful captain (with, say, Will = IQ+1d+1). Just as a modern military until will consist of people who meet certain standards of physical training, led by a person who has demonstrated a certain mental capacity.
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Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com> GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games My DreamWidth [Just GURPS News] |
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09-17-2017, 10:53 PM | #27 |
Join Date: Sep 2017
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Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?
My take on a conversion of D&D Next rules for save-or-die spells to GURPS 4th Standard Magic System, would love suggestions, specially since I'm not very knowledgeable in GURPS:
These rules only apply to Spells that include effects that restrain or otherwise handicap the target:
Additionally, I'm trying to convert the Legendary Resistance trait from D&D Next to GURPS. Legendary Resistance Last edited by Set; 09-17-2017 at 11:35 PM. |
09-17-2017, 11:04 PM | #28 |
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 100 hurricane swamp
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Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?
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09-17-2017, 11:17 PM | #29 | |
Join Date: Mar 2013
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Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?
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Also those spell fixes look pretty broken...e.g. selectively removing the -1 per yard range penalty is a colossal change, since now I can cast Tickle at someone on the other end of the continent. Further, it's very unclear what these do and don't apply to...is Flesh to Stone a restraint/hindrance? What about Create Fire (being on fire has a negative impact on combat ability)? What about a Force Dome conjured around someone? |
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09-17-2017, 11:30 PM | #30 | |||||
Join Date: Sep 2017
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Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?
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I like D&D Next, but I like GURPS more. If only those little problems I have with it could be solved, I'd be really happy. Quote:
I understand they are usually long. That is not the point I dislike for High Fantasy. I dislike that those systems allow the magic workers to shape the world - that it takes a long time or many people, for me, is not the problem. I enjoy the vision that spells are tomes written by very very powerful wizards - the regular apprentice can't shape magic at will. So, the most powerful spells are secret and rare, and if you want to cast something you can't just amass enough people and do it, you'd have to search for the old tome lost in the catacombs of the Wizard King of the 3th Century, then gather the required materials - that will probably include some hard to find stuff too. And then, maybe, it will also require assistance or sacrifice. Quote:
Knight, sword and shield. Fearlessness 4. He's got a 3 + 8 (Shield-16 /2) + 2 (medium shield DB) + 1 (Combat Reflexes) + 1 (Enhanced Block) = 15 Block. And a Will of 14 against things that could scary him. Wizard, has some spells, but whatever. One of them is Deflect Missiles (Since it's so cheap to cast and to acquire, wizards get so many spells and being protected against arrows is surely a very common thing to be desired by a relatively fragile ranged combatant.). Also has a Will of 19. Archer, has Bow-16. Apprentice, has Panic-14. Vs the Wizard, the Apprentice has a very low chance of hitting Panic. Archer simply won't hit his arrows. Vs the Knight, the Apprentice has an equal (minus distance in yards) chance of hitting and of missing the Panic spell. The Archer has a skill of 10 to hit the eye (Bow-16 + 3 Acc -9 eye), before Size/Speed modifiers. In any case, the Knight will have a Block skill of 15. That's 95% chance of blocking. The Archer would have to do Deceptive Shots, and that would reduce his skill even further. He could offset a the -2 for a -1 on the block with +3 seconds of aiming. But still, Block-14 is 90%. That's assuming the Knight is going straight to him, and not taking any step to Retreat. Surely, the Knight will probably slash to pieces any of them, but the Archer doesn't even stand a chance, while the Apprentice has a not so low chance of sending him running away. This is a duel, of course, which makes it even better for the Archer that can shoot from longer distances. In a situation where there's a Knight and +2 thugs against a party of 4 adventurers, the Apprentice will be way, way more valuable to the group thanks to his chances of eliminating the stronger opponent from the fight with a single spell. Last edited by Set; 09-17-2017 at 11:59 PM. Reason: typos |
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