Why does Bastard Sword have a U in parry in 1 hand?

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

leaving aside perspectives on exactly what those differences should mean in game terms, I'm not sure what you describe is inconsistent with what is written in LT?

The long sword in LT is described as a "light Thrusting Bastard sword", and compared to the "standard" thrusting bastard sword it has different physical attributes and different stat derived effects accordingly.
I.e "light" is the important word in the line:

"A light THRUSTING BASTARD SWORD"

Which just dodges the issue I was raising.

If you are going to have a difference between a Bastard Sword and Longsword in terms of becoming unready after use, reach, cost, weight, and even ST requirement by actually adding "longsword" to the table then for the love of sanity tell us how they differ and do not use both terms for the same weapon in the one example you give in the whole book.

Originally Posted by Rupert

The Longsword appears in Martial Arts a couple of years earlier, most likely to explicitly represent the 'longsword' used with the Longsword Fighting style.

Problem is Martial Arts 2 has this:
"LONGSWORD (p. 227; illustration, p. 4) – Germany. A light THRUSTING BASTARD SWORD (pp. B271, B274) designed for two-handed thrusting, often from a Defensive Grip (pp. 109-111). To facilitate this tactic, only the tip-most 6” of the blade was normally sharpened."

Worse yet there is an illustration of the sword on page 4 but based on the shield behind the sword it is a standard run of the mill longsword not a "true" bastard sword. Heck, the description makes that clear as a true bastard sword is "a hand and a half sword" not one handed or two handed but a weird in between handed sword. Which goes a long way in explaining why it would become unready if you tried to parry with it.

Funny thing is Martial Arts tells us one of the authors played Dungeons & Dragons and, whether. he realized or not, it seems to have influenced what he thought a "longsword" was.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Rupert

My solution to this issue with Bastard swords is that if you have sufficient ST to use the Two-handed table, but with one-hand, you can avoid the '0U' (and get extra damage). That is to say, at ST15+ you can use it one-handed without penalties, just as with ST18+ you can used a Greatsword one-handed.

fair enough, the idea that given enough ST a wielder can overcome the balance issues in some weapons seems reasonable to me in abstract

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by maximara

Which just dodges the issue I was raising.

If you are going to have a difference between a Bastard Sword and Longsword in terms of becoming unready after use, reach, cost, weight, and even ST requirement by actually adding "longsword" to the table then for the love of sanity tell us how they differ and do not use both terms for the same weapon in the one example you give in the whole book.

How does it dodge the issue you are raising. The description explicitly tells you how they differ?

You have a thrusting Bastard sword and you have a long sword that is functionally a lighter thrusting bastard sword

The book having made that distinction then goes on to describe that difference in game terms by each weapon's listing in the tables (in both Broadsword and Two handed sword skills)



if you don't like that these terms overlap somewhat or even act at as a derivation of each other at times when certain qualifiers are added, well what can I tell you welcome to the wonderful world of the historical record of swords.

A record that involved long periods of time and lot of different people in different places who actually used these swords and called them by a myriad of particular names (some of which have come down to us with a generally accepted meaning today). And who didn't really care about providing a nice clean list of separate things for our RPG ;-)



Sword = A weapon with (usually) some kind of hilt, separating a handle at one end and a blade with one or two sharp edges that may include an un-sharpened section and possibly a point. It will weigh "an amount", and it will be "a length".

Different combinations of those parameters will give different combinations of game stats in the system (subject to the system's granularity and desire* to do so). The list in LT is really just some game-ably pleasing worked examples of these based on some approximations of culturally recognisable well known combinations of them. But those cultural recognisable groupings are not hard and fast combinations that never:

a). overlapped with others

or

B). varied within themselves.

And did either to a system relevant degree or not.

So if you find a long sword at the royal armouries that's closer to the LT Thrusting bastard sword description, fine in GURPS it's a thrusting bastard sword. Just as if you find a long sword hanging next to it that's 5ft long, it's probably in GURPS terms a great sword with a point.


(and that's before we even get into the LTC rules for adding options to weapons)




*and if we as individual players of the game desire more we can adjust and tinker to our hearts content

[zoncxs]

My favorite wtf "sword" is a kriegsmesser, that is a "knife" almost the size of a great sword. I say "knife" because in Germany during a certain period it was illegal for commoners to own a sword by law which required said law to define what is a sword. Well a knife is not a sword because of how it is put together, the handle is different (full tang that splits the hand; made of two peices put on the tang). And because of that people started to make bigger knives, until the kriegsmesser. Fun stuff.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by zoncxs

My favorite wtf "sword" is a kriegsmesser, that is a "knife" almost the size of a great sword. I say "knife" because in Germany during a certain period it was illegal for commoners to own a sword by law which required said law to define what is a sword. Well a knife is not a sword because of how it is put together, the handle is different (full tang that splits the hand; made of two peices put on the tang). And because of that people started to make bigger knives, until the kriegsmesser. Fun stuff.

Teutonic technically correct legalism for the win*!

But what's its stats in GURPS ;-)

(Generally I'd class a one handed mid length messr as a falchion in GURPS terms, and just scale that up for a longer two handed version).



*or someone really wanted to win the "that's not a knife..." brag off

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by zoncxs

My favorite wtf "sword" is a kriegsmesser, that is a "knife" almost the size of a great sword. I say "knife" because in Germany during a certain period it was illegal for commoners to own a sword by law which required said law to define what is a sword. Well a knife is not a sword because of how it is put together, the handle is different (full tang that splits the hand; made of two peices put on the tang). And because of that people started to make bigger knives, until the kriegsmesser. Fun stuff.

I've heard conflicting stories about that particular part of Germanic history. Some state that interpretation is more myth than fact with how common imported swords not of Messer design were.
And I doubt lawmakers were idiots or would just throw up their hands in defeat at such wordplay.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

I've heard conflicting stories about that particular part of Germanic history. Some state that interpretation is more myth than fact with how common imported swords not of Messer design were.
And I doubt lawmakers were idiots or would just throw up their hands in defeat at such wordplay.

Heh, well cue joke about trying to enforce laws against men with really big knives!

Thing is you could well be right, but application of law especially in the area of disarming people* was (and is) often more a term of art and what you could get away with than a hard and fast absolute (and was thus often sketchy in application at best). Also to an extant it doesn't matter if some legal authorities were not impressed by the "nah it's a large knife innit guv'nah" defence. In terms of the weapons being requested and actually made it matters more that people asking for them believed it might work, and maybe made a correlation isn't causation error of thinking "I haven't had mine taken off me because of the "it's a big knife", sophistry!

There's also the point that I'm guessing that even if this law was actually enforced no matter what the wording was it would often be applied at he point of actual enforcement as a "fine" (which as always is the easiest, least hassle and most profitable sentence to carry out)



*you might be best able to enforce it at a natural choke point like say entrances to walled towns, bridges etc, but it's frankly going to be a hassle, and there are practical issues involved and as ever when resources are stretched thin you go for the lowest hanging fruit first, and use available justifications for doing so!


So for example say you are underpaid and overworked Toll man "Hans", and you see "Gunter" the bad tempered local hard man enforcer of the local guild with his 3ft messr on his hip and an intimidation skill of 17. You going to go and make a scene? Or are you going to opt for a quiet life and tell your sergeant "well it was only a knife so I didn't think it counted" if he asks (and besides Gunter buys you and your sergeant drinks, because ultimately Gunter also likes a quiet life even if he needs to have a 3ft blade handy on occasion for his work). But that travelling merchant who's not from around here and trying to get into town to sell his stuff, oh yeah that's a much easier few Pfennigs fine to apply.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by maximara

Worse yet there is an illustration of the sword on page 4 but based on the shield behind the sword it is a standard run of the mill longsword not a "true" bastard sword. Heck, the description makes that clear as a true bastard sword is "a hand and a half sword" not one handed or two handed but a weird in between handed sword. Which goes a long way in explaining why it would become unready if you tried to parry with it.

Funny thing is Martial Arts tells us one of the authors played Dungeons & Dragons and, whether. he realized or not, it seems to have influenced what he thought a "longsword" was.

The authors didn't do the art.

[GodBeastX]

Reading most of the replies, I feel that the "Longsword" is the fixed version of Bastard Sword just like Long Knife is a fixed Shortsword.

While the +5 ST rule is not a 4E rule, it does bring up a point that further conflates the issue I had. While people were giving viable explanations for the U in the parry, if I had 24 ST, then a Two-handed Sword becomes usable in one hand and does not suffer a U, despite being an obviously larger weapon. And that's by RAW rules.

So I think this is a case of "It's probably not right, but we can't change the weapon entry so it will be U forever".

And yes, it's still U in Dungeon Fantasy RPG.

Thanks for all the feedback none-the-less. Lots of interesting things to read on the topic.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by GodBeastX

Reading most of the replies, I feel that the "Longsword" is the fixed version of Bastard Sword just like Long Knife is a fixed Shortsword.

While the +5 ST rule is not a 4E rule, it does bring up a point that further conflates the issue I had. While people were giving viable explanations for the U in the parry, if I had 24 ST, then a Two-handed Sword becomes usable in one hand and does not suffer a U, despite being an obviously larger weapon. And that's by RAW rules.

So I think this is a case of "It's probably not right, but we can't change the weapon entry so it will be U forever".

And yes, it's still U in Dungeon Fantasy RPG.

Thanks for all the feedback none-the-less. Lots of interesting things to read on the topic.

Yep I think that whatever the foibles of the Unbalanced rule and the weapon mode specific rationalisation of it with bastard swords being used one handed, that bit in bold is key