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Old 08-19-2019, 04:46 AM   #11
maximara
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Default Re: Why does Bastard Sword have a U in parry in 1 hand?

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Originally Posted by Sorenant View Post
Bastard Sword is longer than Longsword (1,2/2 vs 1/1,2) and as I understand it's a primary two-handed weapon that can be used with one hand in a pinch, unlike Longsword that is meant to be more versatile.
It's part of a gradient: Broadsword > Longsword> Bastard Sword > Greatsword.
Which made sense when the gradient was set up back in the 1980s. However thanks to channels like Shadiversity we now know that gradient is wrong

As Shad shows a Bastard Sword (ie the 1 and a half handed sword) is actually shorter then the true Longsword (which is a two handed weapon) If that isn't enough fun there are longswords that are the same size as Great swords.
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Old 08-19-2019, 04:52 AM   #12
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Default Re: Why does Bastard Sword have a U in parry in 1 hand?

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Not by RAW as far as I'm aware?

Worth noting that a +5ST would allow you to use defensive attacks, keep your parry and still do as much or more more damage someone without the +5 ST (IIRC)
Sounds like he mixed up the † and ‡ rules for ST (B270) with U for Parry (B269).
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Old 08-19-2019, 06:01 AM   #13
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Default Re: Why does Bastard Sword have a U in parry in 1 hand?

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
Which made sense when the gradient was set up back in the 1980s. However thanks to channels like Shadiversity we now know that gradient is wrong

As Shad shows a Bastard Sword (ie the 1 and a half handed sword) is actually shorter then the true Longsword (which is a two handed weapon) If that isn't enough fun there are longswords that are the same size as Great swords.

In terms of the thread question it won't just be a matter of overall length in abstract, but also weight and balance (IIRC the bastard sword in LT is heavier then the long-sword, and is more designed towards cutting with more Sw damage)

Or put it another way if the abstract bastard sword is 2lb heavier than the long sword even if the long sword is 3" longer, that extra length won't mean that much in this context, especially if the point of balance it closer to the hands with a long sword (2lbs and 3" just figure used for illustration)


Although as you point out at the end some long swords got pretty long, and such examples likely won't appear in the broadsword skill table in LT!

Also while I admit I haven't watched those videos (no sound at work) unless it has some caveats I'd be really surprised if someone's discovered the true hard and fast historical categories for bastard sword and long sword.

Honestly what a bastard sword and what long sword where, is a mess, the differentiation historically not just being about the physical objects, but the linguistic history* of the terms themselves, not to mention drift in both over a period of time of several centuries (just ask the poor old 'claymore').


Those in history who used these things had the advantage of not worrying about how the weapon in their hand(s) would be distinguished in weapons table in RPGs or in youtube videos in the C21st!



*for instance I believe the term "bastard sword" was more a specifically English thing
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Last edited by Tomsdad; 08-19-2019 at 07:15 AM.
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Old 08-19-2019, 06:02 AM   #14
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Default Re: Why does Bastard Sword have a U in parry in 1 hand?

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Originally Posted by WingedKagouti View Post
Sounds like he mixed up the † and ‡ rules for ST (B270) with U for Parry (B269).
sounds like!
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Old 08-19-2019, 06:09 AM   #15
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Default Re: Why does Bastard Sword have a U in parry in 1 hand?

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
Which made sense when the gradient was set up back in the 1980s. However thanks to channels like Shadiversity we now know that gradient is wrong

As Shad shows a Bastard Sword (ie the 1 and a half handed sword) is actually shorter then the true Longsword (which is a two handed weapon) If that isn't enough fun there are longswords that are the same size as Great swords.
There are also longswords whose blade lengths are the same as other arming swords which is a more correct term than broadsword.

The biggest issue is that swords are not really categorized correctly nor is it possible to get a good system in place. If you want by blade length then you end up with arming swords being labeled as longswords and the reverse as well. Go by design and now you got langmessers and messers and grossmessers which are all technically knives that just so happens to be as long as a sword.

For me a bastard sword in gurps terms is a sword meant more for cutting then thrusting, look up the Duke or the count longsword from Albion armory. A longsword in gurps is one meant more for thrusting, think talhoffer or fiore.
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Old 08-19-2019, 06:19 AM   #16
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Default Re: Why does Bastard Sword have a U in parry in 1 hand?

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There are also longswords whose blade lengths are the same as other arming swords which is a more correct term than broadsword.

The biggest issue is that swords are not really categorized correctly nor is it possible to get a good system in place. If you want by blade length then you end up with arming swords being labeled as longswords and the reverse as well. Go by design and now you got langmessers and messers and grossmessers which are all technically knives that just so happens to be as long as a sword.

For me a bastard sword in gurps terms is a sword meant more for cutting then thrusting, look up the Duke or the count longsword from Albion armory. A longsword in gurps is one meant more for thrusting, think talhoffer or fiore.
Yep exactly.

In some ways the historical use of these terms is kind of moot, especially as we're tying all this to GURPS stats (even more so as the LT descriptions acknowledge the were was a range within each one).

So a long sword is a sword that has GURPS long sword stats, a Bastard sword is one that has bastard sword stats. Weather or not all examples of both were all called long swords or bastard swords, or even if some in the later group were called long swords (and vice versa)

I've seen a 6lb 5-1/2ft "long sword" on display, just because that particular sword was known as a "long sword" doesn't mean I'm going to give it the long sword stats in LT.
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Last edited by Tomsdad; 08-19-2019 at 06:26 AM.
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Old 08-19-2019, 06:24 AM   #17
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Default Re: Why does Bastard Sword have a U in parry in 1 hand?

On top of all this the various options in LT companion for adjusting weapon stats for weapons with various options, further blur the lines!
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Old 08-19-2019, 07:05 AM   #18
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Default Re: Why does Bastard Sword have a U in parry in 1 hand?

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
As Shad shows a Bastard Sword (ie the 1 and a half handed sword) is actually shorter then the true Longsword (which is a two handed weapon) If that isn't enough fun there are longswords that are the same size as Great swords.
If it bothers you just flip the names on the GURPS weapons.

This has always been a problem with weapon names, and a lot of other classification schemes really, because they're attempting to rationalize something that in the real world is used in a sloppy or inconsistent way. Which name goes with which set of properties is always going to be debatable.
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Old 08-19-2019, 07:07 AM   #19
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Default Re: Why does Bastard Sword have a U in parry in 1 hand?

If I'm not mistaken, this was "fixed" in DFRPG, where the bastard sword is just a longsword with reach sw 1-2/thr 2 instead of sw 1/thr 1-2 (which tells me it's longer and thus can cut farther out, but also has trouble thrusting up close due to its length - exactly like a greatsword, just lighter).

I say "fixed" because it's not necessarily wrong to give it some kind of penalty for being heavy, but I think it should come in the form of a ST requirement, not Unbalanced. I've read Unbalanced to mean "the weapon has significantly different 'attack' and 'defense' modes, and swinging it takes it out of position for parrying." Which could, I suppose, describe how you'd wield a 150cm blade in one hand, but I don't think it's analogous to how axes and maces work.
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Old 08-19-2019, 10:18 AM   #20
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Default Re: Why does Bastard Sword have a U in parry in 1 hand?

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Originally Posted by WingedKagouti View Post
Sounds like he mixed up the † and ‡ rules for ST (B270) with U for Parry (B269).
Yes, I believe so. I've used it as a house rule, though, in most of my campaigns.
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