Gm limiting necromancy

[sir_pudding]

There's a big gulf between "has weapon skills" and "demigod of battle". Finding a 75 point grunt or whatever to animate should be relatively easy in comparison (and if the OP is in a game with a fair amount of combat potential subjects will be dying to volunteer).

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

There's a big gulf between "has weapon skills" and "demigod of battle". Finding a 75 point grunt or whatever to animate should be relatively easy in comparison (and if the OP is in a game with a fair amount of combat potential subjects will be dying to volunteer).

Though most of the potential subjects might have serious damage to their bodies that might impact their post-mortem stats.

But, in general, I agree that finding bodies with combat skills is utterly trivial in any combat-heavy game.

I'm just not convinced that having permanent control over untiring, fearless soldiers with full weapon skills and Attributes (except IQ), but no ability to feel pain, is really fair for the comparatively low cost of 8 FP.

Compare Summon Elemental, Summon Demon, Golem, Create Warrior or other similar spells.

I'll grant that the necessity to have access to a dead body with these skills ought to make the Zombie spell more efficient in terms of FP to usefulness than the other spells, but maybe not by quite that much.

Besides, metaphysically speaking, the animated corpse possessing any of the skills that the living person did pretty much implies that you've trapped their mind in the rotting corpse. This suits some settings, but not others. In many fantasy settings, mindless undead have no connection with the mind or soul of the being whose body it is. They are just matter animated by a link to the power of the Death God or the Negative Energy Plane or something similar.

And even where it's possible for the corpses to contain the souls or minds of the person they were, it probably ought to be a ritual, not something that takes less time than microwaving ramen.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Though most of the potential subjects might have serious damage to their bodies that might impact their post-mortem stats.

But, in general, I agree that finding bodies with combat skills is utterly trivial in any combat-heavy game.

I'm just not convinced that having permanent control over untiring, fearless soldiers with full weapon skills and Attributes (except IQ), but no ability to feel pain, is really fair for the comparatively low cost of 8 FP.

Compare Summon Elemental, Summon Demon, Golem, Create Warrior or other similar spells.

I'll grant that the necessity to have access to a dead body with these skills ought to make the Zombie spell more efficient in terms of FP to usefulness than the other spells, but maybe not by quite that much.

I agree it's a cheap spell in theory

But I think ultimately the balance is in playing up the mental disads (but just not forgetting that IQ will have an impact on them)

As a GM I probably also play up the difficulties of trying to create and more importantly run an army of zombies, making it less attractive for a PC and more a NPC kind of thing.

Originally Posted by Icelander

Besides, metaphysically speaking, the animated corpse possessing any of the skills that the living person did pretty much implies that you've trapped their mind in the rotting corpse. This suits some settings, but not others. In many fantasy settings, mindless undead have no connection with the mind or soul of the being whose body it is. They are just matter animated by a link to the power of the Death God or the Negative Energy Plane or something similar.

And even where it's possible for the corpses to contain the souls or minds of the person they were, it probably ought to be a ritual, not something that takes less time than microwaving ramen.

I think this ultimately comes into where are skilled 'held' and the nature of the soul/consciousness in regards to capabilities. There no 'right' answer to that one (at least no one that isn't individual game specific), however the spell's default does come with some assumptions here

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Icelander

I'm just not convinced that having permanent control over untiring, fearless soldiers with full weapon skills and Attributes (except IQ), but no ability to feel pain, is really fair for the comparatively low cost of 8 FP.

IME, there isn't a balance issue, and this spell is basically unchanged from its earliest incarnation. I have run games with PC necromancers and they aren't remotely overpowered.

Finding a suitable body can be challenging, especially in settings where necromancy is known and funerals routinely include Final Rest. The legal and social issues can be challenging if Zombie is treated like a low LC spell. In the end you still have really crappy cannon fodder servitors that require micromanagement.

Compare Summon Elemental, Summon Demon, Golem, Create Warrior or other similar spells.

Well, necromancy is traditionally supposed to be a shortcut and all of those options do produce servitors with positive point values, whereas Zombie rarely does.

Your average zombie is really nearly useless in a fight against even moderately threatening opponents except as fodder and if you want them to be even more useless just use the Cannon Fodder rule (or the Minion variant).

I'll grant that the necessity to have access to a dead body with these skills ought to make the Zombie spell more efficient in terms of FP to usefulness than the other spells, but maybe not by quite that much.

A dead body, with the skills, that hasn't had Final Rest cast on it.

Besides, metaphysically speaking, the animated corpse possessing any of the skills that the living person did pretty much implies that you've trapped their mind in the rotting corpse. This suits some settings, but not others. In many fantasy settings, mindless undead have no connection with the mind or soul of the being whose body it is. They are just matter animated by a link to the power of the Death God or the Negative Energy Plane or something similar.

Not necessarily, there's really no consistent metaphysical support for DX-based skills belonging to the soul and not the body, and even if there is in the setting, the law of contagion could still be used to explain why the animating spirit gets the skills too.

And even where it's possible for the corpses to contain the souls or minds of the person they were, it probably ought to be a ritual, not something that takes less time than microwaving ramen.

The magic systems for which this is appropriate have the appropriate ritual lengths. The spell magic system isn't for that.

[Andreas]

One downside of its attributes being based on those of the target is that dead people generally have negative HP. Especially since zombies have Fragile
(Unnatural). If you want to ignore that part of the issue, it might be fair to rule that the target also loses most of the physical advantages it had in life. Using magic to replace the damaged parts of the body also replaces some other things as well.

There are ways to kill people without reducing their HP, but that can make things significantly more complicated. One might also rule that people killed by things zombies are immune to (such as poison) can produce zombies with full HP.

Originally Posted by Icelander

Besides, metaphysically speaking, the animated corpse possessing any of the skills that the living person did pretty much implies that you've trapped their mind in the rotting corpse. This suits some settings, but not others. In many fantasy settings, mindless undead have no connection with the mind or soul of the being whose body it is. They are just matter animated by a link to the power of the Death God or the Negative Energy Plane or something similar.

The spell description actually mentions the "soul" specifically.

" It does not have the “soul,” mental traits, IQ-based skills, or memories of the living person"

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

IME, there isn't a balance issue, and this spell is basically unchanged from its earliest incarnation. I have run games with PC necromancers and they aren't remotely overpowered.

I'm not that worried about them being overpowered as I want the Zombie spell to be thematically appropriate and fairly balanced against other options.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Finding a suitable body can be challenging, especially in settings where necromancy is known and funerals routinely include Final Rest. The legal and social issues can be challenging if Zombie is treated like a low LC spell. In the end you still have really crappy cannon fodder servitors that require micromanagement.

In any combat heavy game, you're going to have a huge supply of high-Attribute, highly skilled foes* dying regularly.

*Because they are meant to challenge the adventuring party.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Well, necromancy is traditionally supposed to be a shortcut and all of those options do produce servitors with positive point values, whereas Zombie rarely does.

I'm pretty sure that if you bothered to total the social Disadvantages of Golems, elementals or Created Warriors, they'd be a negative point value.

And even with the Zombie template added and all mental skills removed, any humanoid foe meant to stand toe-to-toe with DF-esque Knights, Scouts and Swashbucklers will tend to reach a positive point value as a re-animated corpse. Especially if the foes are meant to challenge an experienced party, where the PCs have earned hundreds of points since the start of game play.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Your average zombie is really nearly useless in a fight against even moderately threatening opponents except as fodder and if you want them to be even more useless just use the Cannon Fodder rule (or the Minion variant).

Functionally, the 'average' zombie will tend to be the most powerful warriors that the PCs killed in the last encounter with -2 IQ, a bunch of mental Disadvantages that make them incapable of anything much more complicated than killing everything in a room that isn't the PCs and no sense of self-preservation.

I expect that someone like Khurgh the Hammerer, the fearsome orcish chieftain who rules through strength of arms, would still be pretty fearsome in zombie form if he retained all his DX-based skills at full value. He'd probably have little trouble hacking through several raiding parties of less powerful orcs, especially as any injury short of reducing him to -HP would basically be ignored.

I mean, it's not unfair for the 1,200 point Necromancer to be able to call up 500 point zombies fairly quickly, especially considering how much havoc the 1,200 point Knight or Scout are wreaking per turn, but it just seems odd that creating that kind of awesomeness, especially on a permanent basis, costs less FP than a 5d burn ex Explosive Fireball.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Not necessarily, there's really no consistent metaphysical support for DX-based skills belonging to the soul and not the body, and even if there is in the setting, the law of contagion could still be used to explain why the animating spirit gets the skills too.

I prefer a metaphysical system where operating at peak capability requires mind, body and soul* all working in harmony.

There is, in fact, a scenario in a Forgotten Realms novel where a drow priestess uses a powerful ritual that animates a body with all of the skills it had in life and sends a famous drow weapon master to kill the protagonist. The priestess is aware that the dead weapon master was the protagonist's instructor, but as I recall, she is unaware of the fact that the person turned into a super-zombie is also his father.

It is an important plot point that in order to defeat the protagonist, the super-zombie needs to be every bit as skilled as it was in life. And it turns out that this is also its weakness, as during the duel, the mental chess-match behind the fencing with the protagonist causes the super-zombie to remember flashes of its life and, eventually, the emotional connection with his student/son, with whom he used to spar every day.

In the kind of metaphysics I prefer, mindless animated corpses might be able to go through the simple motions of attacking, but they are incapable of the kind of perfect synthesis of thought, reaction and instinct that highly skilled swordsmen** must exhibit when facing a near equal.

In game terms, Zombies created by the spell might have DX-based skills, but will usually have them at much lower levels than the living person. I wouldn't object to characters using the same or similar spells to create undead with skill levels closer to what they had in life, but, as I noted, would require that such undead were created with something closer than a ritual than a one minute chant. And such undead would probably have traits that reflected trapping a part of the soul in the corpse.

*In fantasy settings.
**Substitute any skill.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

The magic systems for which this is appropriate have the appropriate ritual lengths. The spell magic system isn't for that.

The GURPS Magic spell system does have the occasional spell with a long casting time. I simply prefer that creating fairly low-value, completely mindless re-animated corpses for short-term combat solutions were distinguished from creating zombie ninjas or zombie swordmasters.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Andreas

One downside of its attributes being based on those of the target is that dead people generally have negative HP. Especially since zombies have Fragile
(Unnatural). If you want to ignore that part of the issue, it might be fair to rule that the target also loses most of the physical advantages it had in life. Using magic to replace the damaged parts of the body also replaces some other things as well.

There are ways to kill people without reducing their HP, but that can make things significantly more complicated. One might also rule that people killed by things zombies are immune to (such as poison) can produce zombies with full HP.

...

Or if they bled to death, were killed by brain or vital injuries, But TBH it sounds a bit like a "your zombie dies because it was dead before he was a zombie" kind of Sadistic Genie/GM wish interpretation argument.

Missing limbs and hands etc though I certainly make those count after death in zombiehood!

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

IME, there isn't a balance issue, and this spell is basically unchanged from its earliest incarnation. I have run games with PC necromancers and they aren't remotely overpowered.

Finding a suitable body can be challenging, especially in settings where necromancy is known and funerals routinely include Final Rest. The legal and social issues can be challenging if Zombie is treated like a low LC spell. In the end you still have really crappy cannon fodder servitors that require micromanagement.
Well, necromancy is traditionally supposed to be a shortcut and all of those options do produce servitors with positive point values, whereas Zombie rarely does.

Thing is with the Zombie negative points value a lot of it is related to the playability of a PC with the same traits I.e. most of the negatives come from mental disads, some of which won't really matter for a zombie being ordered about (some actually make it easier to do so). And of course it's a 'racial' template applied to a pre-existing creature. So it's hard to actually compare zombie to elemental etc here.

And even that pre-existing creature CP total also depends on what how it was made up and what is kept.

A 400pt wizard who had zero combat skills at time of death is unlikely to end up at a 400-168 = 232pt zombie

a 400pt barbarian might end up a bit closer to a 200pt zombie