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Old 05-20-2018, 01:58 AM   #11
ColBosch
 
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Default Re: A VI for the fifth?

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Originally Posted by wolf90 View Post
Of course, these assume that the original metal miniatures were made in proper scale relative to each other.
Well, let's see. The Ogre Mk. V is supposed to be 25.5 meters long, according to Winchell. At 1/300 scale, that should be 85mm. Using the numbers I gave above and converting from 'Murica to Sanity, we get 82.5mm - good enough for government work, and certainly nothing worth throwing out untold thousands of miniatures over.

The Ogre Mk. VI is supposed to be 27.4m long, or 92.3mm at 1/300. The current miniature is 85.7mm long, so it is underscale, though it appears to be proportionate. It should be almost 10% larger than it is.

In other words, if we treat Winchell's numbers as canon - and I see no reason why not - then the current Mk. V is 97% of its proper size. The metal Mk. VI, however, is only 92%, and it shows when the minis are side-by-side. If the Mk. VI is tweaked to be a full 92 to 92.5mm long, it'll be noticeably and appreciably larger than the Mk. V without being out of scale.

I don't have any data on the Doppelsoldner - full-scale or miniature - but anecdotal evidence from GURPS Ogre says "about as long as a Mark VI, but even more massive." Since the idea is to make it look impressive next to the Fencer, and given that the Fencer is (like the Mk. V) 3 1/4" long, making the Doppelsoldner 92mm long seems about right, too.

The full 25% suggested by HeatDeath would result in miniatures about 107mm long - far too large! But he is right: the two largest cybertanks (aside from the rumored Mk. VII and the shadowy "other prototypes") should have bigger miniatures.

Note that I have no idea if this would make the pieces too large for economical manufacture. But, given the size of the infantry sprue, I really doubt it. I've definitely seen ABS pieces cast larger than what we've got so far from the Ogre line. Worst case, raise the price a little. Ogre Mk. VI miniatures currently go for well over $100, when they hit the market at all. I don't think anyone would mind paying $7-$8 for one in plastic. ;)
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Old 05-20-2018, 11:03 AM   #12
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Default Re: A VI for the fifth?

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Originally Posted by ColBosch View Post
Well, let's see. The Ogre Mk. V is supposed to be 25.5 meters long, according to Winchell. At 1/300 scale, that should be 85mm. Using the numbers I gave above and converting from 'Murica to Sanity, we get 82.5mm - good enough for government work, and certainly nothing worth throwing out untold thousands of miniatures over.

The Ogre Mk. VI is supposed to be 27.4m long, or 92.3mm at 1/300. The current miniature is 85.7mm long, so it is underscale, though it appears to be proportionate. It should be almost 10% larger than it is.

In other words, if we treat Winchell's numbers as canon - and I see no reason why not - then the current Mk. V is 97% of its proper size. The metal Mk. VI, however, is only 92%, and it shows when the minis are side-by-side. If the Mk. VI is tweaked to be a full 92 to 92.5mm long, it'll be noticeably and appreciably larger than the Mk. V without being out of scale.

I don't have any data on the Doppelsoldner - full-scale or miniature - but anecdotal evidence from GURPS Ogre says "about as long as a Mark VI, but even more massive." Since the idea is to make it look impressive next to the Fencer, and given that the Fencer is (like the Mk. V) 3 1/4" long, making the Doppelsoldner 92mm long seems about right, too.

The full 25% suggested by HeatDeath would result in miniatures about 107mm long - far too large! But he is right: the two largest cybertanks (aside from the rumored Mk. VII and the shadowy "other prototypes") should have bigger miniatures.

Note that I have no idea if this would make the pieces too large for economical manufacture. But, given the size of the infantry sprue, I really doubt it. I've definitely seen ABS pieces cast larger than what we've got so far from the Ogre line. Worst case, raise the price a little. Ogre Mk. VI miniatures currently go for well over $100, when they hit the market at all. I don't think anyone would mind paying $7-$8 for one in plastic. ;)
I'm getting 91.3mm.

I wonder...I ran the math based on the fan expansion of that old "Side by Side" picture of Winchell's, the one that includes the Mk.VI.

Basing on that, it looks like there's some scale shenanigans at play, but that the VI should be 25.5m long and the V at 23.3m.

If you go by that, it lines up a lot more cleanly:

Mk.VI 25.5m @ 1/285 = 89.47mm
Mk.VI 25.5m @ 1/300 = 85.00mm
Mk.VI Actual (Metal): 85.7mm
Mk.VI Actual (Plastic): N/A

Mk.V 23.3m @ 1/285 = 81.75mm
Mk.V 23.3m @ 1/300 = 77.66mm
Mk.V Actual (Metal): Help me out here, Bosch...
Mk.V Actual (Plastic): 82.5mm

Mk.III 19.2m @ 1/285 = 67.36mm
Mk.III 19.2m @ 1/300 = 64.00mm
Mk.III Actual (Metal): Help me out here, Bosch...
Mk.III Actual (Plastic): 63.5mm

Granted, I have no idea which came first...the minis or the poster, but still something to consider.

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Edit: Whoops, and yeah, I wouldn't think twice if for some reason I needed more and they were on W23 at $12.50 a pair / $7.50 each.
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Old 05-20-2018, 11:25 AM   #13
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Default Re: A VI for the fifth?

The metal SJ Games Mk. III and V are within micrometers of the plastics. Aside from some surface details like the AP guns, they are nearly indistinguishable side by side.

Here's the thing: if we peg the line at 1/300 (per SJ), and we assume that 25.5m is the length of the Mk. V, then the numbers pretty much work except for the Mk. VI. So it's far simplest to just scale the Mk. VI up to 91-92mm when it comes time to sculpt it for plastic. That makes it both closer to "real" scale and satisfies the folks who think it looks undersized.

Edit: And yes, TheAmishStig is correct, the Mk. VI works out to 91.3mm at 1/300 scale.
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Old 05-20-2018, 11:28 AM   #14
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Default Re: A VI for the fifth?

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The metal SJ Games Mk. III and V are within micrometers of the plastics. Aside from some surface details like the AP guns, they are nearly indistinguishable side by side.

Here's the thing: if we peg the line at 1/300 (per SJ), and we assume that 25.5m is the length of the Mk. V, then the numbers pretty much work except for the Mk. VI. So it's far simplest to just scale the Mk. VI up to 91-92mm when it comes time to sculpt it for plastic. That makes it both closer to "real" scale and satisfies the folks who think it looks undersized.
This is mostly me trying to figure out what went sideways...I debug code for a living, it's kind of a bad habit. :(

But as I put on FB...I'm not gonna sit here and make Drew pull his hair out over fractions of a mm, or 1:300 vs 1:309. No matter which pair gets used [23.3 / 25.5 or 25.5 / 27.4], it's about a 9% difference (9.4% vs 9.96%)...so as long as the Mk.VI is about 9% longer than the Mk.V, I'll be happy.
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Old 05-20-2018, 12:49 PM   #15
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Default Re: A VI for the fifth?

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This is mostly me trying to figure out what went sideways...I debug code for a living, it's kind of a bad habit. :(
No offense meant to the guy, but Richard (the sculptor) probably just goofed. These things happen. You should see how wildly the BattleTech line varies in scale from piece to piece, and they now use CAD programs and rapid prototyping alongside peer and editorial review...and goofs still make it through.

Quote:
But as I put on FB...I'm not gonna sit here and make Drew pull his hair out over fractions of a mm, or 1:300 vs 1:309. No matter which pair gets used [23.3 / 25.5 or 25.5 / 27.4], it's about a 9% difference (9.4% vs 9.96%)...so as long as the Mk.VI is about 9% longer than the Mk.V, I'll be happy.
Agreed again. At ~9% longer than a Mk. V, the VI is going to be one mean-looking beast.
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Old 05-20-2018, 01:15 PM   #16
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Default Re: A VI for the fifth?

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I'm not gonna sit here and make Drew pull his hair out over fractions of a mm, or 1:300 vs 1:309.
Good thing, too, as I'm mostly bald!

<grin>

D.
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Old 05-20-2018, 03:35 PM   #17
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Default Re: A VI for the fifth?

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Do we know whether it is meaningfully wider?
The easiest way to find that out is to ask Winch. What everyone is forgetting about that size comparison chart is that it comes from him mucking about with 3D models, so he has the width numbers from his models, too.
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Old 05-20-2018, 05:00 PM   #18
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Default Re: A VI for the fifth?

I did suggest that a few posts back, but went ahead and did the math based on the miniatures anyway. ;)
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Old 05-20-2018, 05:33 PM   #19
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Default Re: A VI for the fifth?

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I did suggest that a few posts back, but went ahead and did the math based on the miniatures anyway. ;)
Yeah, I saw that. I was just adding some clarification that the size comparison image wasn't created in a vacuum. The numbers are there; it'll be interesting to see how they play out against the minis measurements.
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Old 05-20-2018, 05:37 PM   #20
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Default Re: A VI for the fifth?

. . . and when we send the specs to the miniatures designer, we'll have to come back here to take advantage of the homework y'all have done.
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