Double gauntlets?

[Gef]

Does the armor layering rule apply to extremities? (p. LT 103) With no actual experience, to my imagination it seems more awkward than layering parts of the body that don't have fingers, but the rule seems to imply that if you've already got -1 to general DX for layers on the torso, you might as well have segmented plate over mail on your hands.

[Calvin]

Originally Posted by Gef

Does the armor layering rule apply to extremities? (p. LT 103) With no actual experience, to my imagination it seems more awkward than layering parts of the body that don't have fingers, but the rule seems to imply that if you've already got -1 to general DX for layers on the torso, you might as well have segmented plate over mail on your hands.

The layering penalty applies to everywhere except the head. Though outside of the torso, it's per-extremity. So if you've got layers on your left arm but not your right, only your left arm takes the penalty.

There is an exception to this though, where you can add a layer without taking the DX penalty so long as it doesn't cover any more than 3/6th of the location.
So you can have a pectoral plate in addition to your torso armour without taking any extra penalties.

[Pursuivant]

Realistic gauntlets are already layered, since they're typically built around a leather glove. You get the DR the outer shell provides on the wrist, back of the hand, and the back of the fingers, and DR 1 for the palm of the hand.

If you were to do something like wear 15th c. plate mitten gauntlets over 11th c. padded mail mittens, I guess you could remove the leather glove and use leather straps to attach the outer gauntlet to the inner one. You'd suffer the usual penalties to manual dexterity for the mail mittens, but no extra penalties for the plate gauntlets as long as you accepted just DR 1 on the palms of your hands.

A minor issue that GURPS ignores is that any extra mass on your extremities has a proportionately greater effect on hand or foot speed than the same amount of armor closer to your core.

If you wanted to be hyperealistic, you could count encumbrance for gauntlets and vambraces/bracers as double when determining penalties to skills to Encumbrance (or maybe reduce Basic Speed by Encumbrance to determine Initiative) and double encumbrance for footwear, foot armor and greaves when determining penalties to Move due to Encumbrance.

A simpler way to get the same effect might be to double penalties for layering armor on your extremities.

[mburr0003]

I'd allow it, but I'd also apply Bad Grip and/or Ham-Fisted as per Low-Tech Instant Armor.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by mburr0003

I'd allow it, but I'd also apply Bad Grip and/or Ham-Fisted as per Low-Tech Instant Armor.

That's a good way to handle it. Wearing multiple layers of gloves quickly turns your fingers into immobile sausages.

[Gef]

Thanks for the advice.

Starting a new fantasy campaign, I'm working on pre-calculated loadouts to make shopping easier, and yes that includes noting Ham-fisted and bad grip as well as DX and Stealth penalties and DR versus area attacks.

[StevenH]

Historically, men at arms (in the 14th-15th centuries) would wear gambeson, a chain shirt, and a brigandine vest, if they couldn't afford plate harness (which came about around during the late 14th century). Given the weapons of the time (reinforced tapering points designed to pierce fabric/mail), just the gambeson/mail combo wasn't considered enough protection. The combination was almost as protective, and much cheaper. When Matt Easton wore that combination on his Scholagladiatoria youtube channel, demonstrating what has been found in the historical sources, he wasn't having much problem moving around.

15th century is ranging into Renaissance territory, but so is articulated plate harness. So if you are looking more to a 1000AD style medieval game, brigandine and plate hadn't been invented yet, and mail was the top of the line armor.
Note that those men at arms focused their armor on the head/torso. Arms were protected only by the gambeson and mail, and they often didn't armor the legs at all (although legs were a harder target to hit, as the training they had taught them to keep their legs out of combat range when possible).

I can't imagine trying to put gauntlets on top of gauntlets. Even the mitten type had integral leather under the plates that protected the backs of the hand and fingers. Putting anything else on over the leather (like extra finger-sleeves, or something) would interfere with the proper function of the gloves.
Although I wonder if a set of jack chains could be made to attach from the fingertips to wrist. Attaching those to a leather glove might work, if a proper gauntlet can't be found. Those at least would protect against cuts.

[Ashtagon]

Conceivably, you could have a specially-designed plate gauntlet designed to fit on top of a chain mail glove. But due to the way the plate gauntlet would have to be designed to accommodate the chain glove, that plate gauntlet would be nigh-useless to anyone who wasn't wearing a chain glove; at the very least, you'd have to wear enough padding around your hands underneath the plate that the effect on your manual dexterity would be about the same as if you had been wearing the chain anyway (and without that padding, your hand would just be rattling around inside an oversize plate gauntlet).

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by Ashtagon

Conceivably, you could have a specially-designed plate gauntlet designed to fit on top of a chain mail glove. But due to the way the plate gauntlet would have to be designed to accommodate the chain glove, that plate gauntlet would be nigh-useless to anyone who wasn't wearing a chain glove; at the very least, you'd have to wear enough padding around your hands underneath the plate that the effect on your manual dexterity would be about the same as if you had been wearing the chain anyway (and without that padding, your hand would just be rattling around inside an oversize plate gauntlet).

Of course, for a fantasy game, adding padded and/or chain gloves might be a common way to wear gauntlets made for someone with similar-enough hands, but their SM was one higher.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by StevenH

I can't imagine trying to put gauntlets on top of gauntlets.

Technically, with a full mitten or finger-lame gauntlet, you're putting a "gauntlet within a gauntlet" because you start with the steel outer shell and then incorporate it with a leather glove underneath.

Multiple layers of finger gauntlets would be nearly impossible except for multiple layers of flexible material which just protect the backs of the fingers and hand. There just isn't enough space between the fingers to provide better protection.

Layers of mitten gauntlets might work better if the underlying gauntlets were flexible enough and were specifically designed to work with the other layers. In any case, you're limited to one hard outer shell.

The exception might be that projections which extend from plate vambraces (lower arm "cannons") to cover the back of the hand & fingers might work with a hard-shelled outer gauntlet.

An anachronistic solution that I've seen is a combination of oversized, overbuilt basket hilts which can be worn over a full gauntlet.

Suffice it to say that multiple layers of hand protection would be a tricky technical feat for any armorer and getting multiple layers of hand protection which work well together would require technical genius and ridiculous amounts of custom-fitting.

It's entirely fair to double penalties for layering armor on the hands or feet, or other tricky-to-armor parts of the body like the armpits or groin.

Originally Posted by StevenH

Although I wonder if a set of jack chains could be made to attach from the fingertips to wrist. Attaching those to a leather glove might work, if a proper gauntlet can't be found. Those at least would protect against cuts.

I've seen 17th c. gauntlets similar to what you describe, with a finely-made leather gauntlet with metal "scales" extending down the backs of each finger and across the back of the hand. IIRC, there are some Asian (Indian) armors and possibly some archeological finds from the Battle of Wisby which had similar hand protection.

As you point out, the big problem with armoring the hand, or other bony parts of the body, is getting decent crush protection. Just layering padded leather, mail over padded backing, or articulated or overlapping metal plates isn't going to give good crush resistance. It's fair to rule that any hit to hand or hand & foot armor which fails to penetrate DR by 0 or 1 inflicts 1 HP of crushing damage instead.

The exceptions are "locking gauntlets" and gauntlets which encase the fingers in rigid material which forms a shell. That way impacts are distributed across the entire hand (or finger) and force which would normally crush a finger or hand is transferred to the grip of whatever weapon the user holding and/or other parts of the "shell." Finger gauntlets which can do this are effectively Fine-Quality or better. 15th c. Italian mitten gauntlets which provide the same benefis are simple enough that they're available at Good-Quality prices.