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Old 05-12-2008, 06:34 AM   #1
mlangsdorf
 
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Default Swarms: How do they work, really

The delvers in my DF Online game ran into the Tunnel of Inexplicably Hostile Vermin last night, and so I got to break out the swarm rules. Some questions arose that I house ruled or ignored at the time, but now:

a) Swarms are supposed to be damaged as Diffuse entities, but there are exceptions that make no sense. For example, it's possible to Shield Bash flying swarms for 2 damage, but shield bashing a Diffuse entity does 2 damage already. Should I just house rule it back to GURPS 2nd edition, where all physical attacks against swarms did 1 point?

b) There's no to-hit roll when attacking swarms. What action is required? Can you Rapid Strike, or All-Out Attack/Rapid Strike to get 3 hits in? If you're stomping a rat swarm, can you shield bash a bat swarm at the same time? Is it legal to Move and Attack when dealing with swarms, and if so, can you stomp/bash at the same time and is there any penalty to hit?

c) Swarms don't roll to hit when attack. What action is required? Can swarms move and attack? Where do they hit when they attack? I guess they could be treated as all-over attacks (average DR of torso and worse hit location) but that doesn't make sense for a rat swarms against a standing foe.

Any answers or suggestions greatly appreciated.
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Old 05-12-2008, 07:47 AM   #2
vicky_molokh
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Default Re: Swarms: How do they work, really

The Shield Bash rule seems redundant, not needing a fix per re. But the effects of Rapid Strikes etc. seem like a good question. Alas, I have no answer. In fact, I have MORE questions inspired by your post.
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Old 05-12-2008, 08:16 AM   #3
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Default Re: Swarms: How do they work, really

I never really used swarms, but this puzzles me as well.

I can't even remember the exact ruels for them.

So, anyone have any suggestions? Is it fair/unfair to allow Move and Attack against them, for instance? :)
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Old 05-12-2008, 08:23 AM   #4
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Default Re: Swarms: How do they work, really

I'm even more curious as to the right of a Swarm PC (i.e. one with the body of swarm) to use Rapid Strike and the like . . .

And when does a group of characters get treated as a swarm? I'm thinking that Swarm rules are just Mass Combat Rules for Insects. ;)
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Old 05-12-2008, 08:34 AM   #5
Not another shrubbery
 
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Default Re: Swarms: How do they work, really

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlangsdorf
b) There's no to-hit roll when attacking swarms. What action is required? Can you Rapid Strike, or All-Out Attack/Rapid Strike to get 3 hits in? If you're stomping a rat swarm, can you shield bash a bat swarm at the same time? Is it legal to Move and Attack when dealing with swarms, and if so, can you stomp/bash at the same time and is there any penalty to hit?

c) Swarms don't roll to hit when attack. What action is required? Can swarms move and attack? Where do they hit when they attack? I guess they could be treated as all-over attacks (average DR of torso and worse hit location) but that doesn't make sense for a rat swarms against a standing foe.
Based on my understanding of the appropriate rules:

b) An attack action appears to be required, i.e., you do not just damage the swarm just because you are next to it, you must use some Attack maneuver. Rapid Strike, All-Out Attack, etc., look like valid choices. Move and Attack also seems valid, but simply moving through the swarm is not an attack, IMO, and should not automatically do damage (GMs might rule some incidental damage is done). You have to stop to stomp, and a bash should count as the attack part of a MaA.

c) The only action required by a swarm to attack is to move into the target's hex, at which point the target takes the listed damage automatically for every round they remain in contact with the swarm. It seems best to assume that the damage is general body damage, rather than worrying about hit location, but the GM is free to rule otherwise, and hit locations might make more sense in some cases.
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Old 05-12-2008, 08:41 AM   #6
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Default Re: Swarms: How do they work, really

Quote:
Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery
Based on my understanding of the appropriate rules:

b) An attack action appears to be required, i.e., you do not just damage the swarm just because you are next to it, you must use some Attack maneuver. Rapid Strike, All-Out Attack, etc., look like valid choices. Move and Attack also seems valid, but simply moving through the swarm is not an attack, IMO, and should not automatically do damage (GMs might rule some incidental damage is done). You have to stop to stomp, and a bash should count as the attack part of a MaA.
What about Trampling?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery
c) The only action required by a swarm to attack is to move into the target's hex, at which point the target takes the listed damage automatically for every round they remain in contact with the swarm. It seems best to assume that the damage is general body damage, rather than worrying about hit location, but the GM is free to rule otherwise, and hit locations might make more sense in some cases.
That's strange. What if the swarm PC has multiple attacks with a very low chance to hit?
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Old 05-12-2008, 09:06 AM   #7
Not another shrubbery
 
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Default Re: Swarms: How do they work, really

Quote:
Originally Posted by Molokh
What about Trampling?
Trampling is equivalent to an Attack, and is targeted at one creature. IMO, you wouldn't try to Trample a swarm (unless you were so big that you could cover the area occupied by it). AIS, GMs are free to rule on incidental damage when moving through a swarm.
Quote:
What if the swarm PC has multiple attacks with a very low chance to hit?
I was replying to the OP, which seemed to be concerned only with animal swarms. Characters with IT:Diffuse(Swarm) are different in some important respects, and probably are better off treated separately.
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Old 05-12-2008, 02:33 PM   #8
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Default Re: Swarms: How do they work, really

Quote:
Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery
Based on my understanding of the appropriate rules:

b) An attack action appears to be required, i.e., you do not just damage the swarm just because you are next to it, you must use some Attack maneuver. Rapid Strike, All-Out Attack, etc., look like valid choices. Move and Attack also seems valid, but simply moving through the swarm is not an attack, IMO, and should not automatically do damage (GMs might rule some incidental damage is done). You have to stop to stomp, and a bash should count as the attack part of a MaA.
Thanks for the response.

It specifically says you can bash while attacking with another weapon, and if you're taking a MaA, you can attack at any point in your movement. You can also stomp a ground based swarm while attacking. It seems like it would be legal to MaA and stomp a ground swarm, swing at a ground or flying swarm, and bash a flying swarm, all while moving at full speed - but that seems nuts.

Also, are there close combat penalties for attacking a swarm? I don't see how there could be, but then again, there's something weird about a guy with a bullwhip killing wasps with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery
c) The only action required by a swarm to attack is to move into the target's hex, at which point the target takes the listed damage automatically for every round they remain in contact with the swarm. It seems best to assume that the damage is general body damage, rather than worrying about hit location, but the GM is free to rule otherwise, and hit locations might make more sense in some cases.
Hmm. Maybe I misread. Do you take swarm damage if you're in a swarm hex at the start of your turn? That would make slightly more sense. The swarm could move freely on its turn, but it wouldn't be able to attack multiple people in the process.
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Old 05-12-2008, 11:00 PM   #9
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Default Re: Swarms: How do they work, really

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlangsdorf
It specifically says you can bash while attacking with another weapon, and if you're taking a MaA, you can attack at any point in your movement. You can also stomp a ground based swarm while attacking. It seems like it would be legal to MaA and stomp a ground swarm, swing at a ground or flying swarm, and bash a flying swarm, all while moving at full speed - but that seems nuts.
I don't follow your reasoning. The paragraph in question says you can attack a flying swarm with a shield and a weapon at the same time. In a separate sentence it says you can attack a nonflying swarm by stomping and a weapon at the same time. This does not suggest to me that you can attack more than twice. FTM, Stomping does not seem like a valid part of a MaA... I have the feeling that it assumes you are standing in place and focusing on crushing the critters underfoot (I'm not completely sure about this).
Quote:
Also, are there close combat penalties for attacking a swarm? I don't see how there could be, but then again, there's something weird about a guy with a bullwhip killing wasps with it.
There's no mention of close combat mods, but it makes sense to me that non-"C" weapons would be less effective in close combat with a swarm. Common sense should be your friend, here.
Quote:
Hmm. Maybe I misread. Do you take swarm damage if you're in a swarm hex at the start of your turn? That would make slightly more sense. The swarm could move freely on its turn, but it wouldn't be able to attack multiple people in the process.
I don't see a reason to assume other than a normal turn sequence. The swarm attacks in it's turn, automatically hits, and does the listed damage. As the rules note, it can only attack one target at a time.
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Old 08-26-2018, 10:51 AM   #10
VIVIT
 
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Default Re: Swarms: How do they work, really

Necroing this thread because this problem came up in our session yesterday.

The situation dealt with the Rapid Strike rules in particular. 3 hits against a swarm don't seem all that unreasonable, especially since most normal melee damage is reduced to 1 or 2 points, but if you have the Weapon Master advantage, these penalties are halved, allowing you to get 6 free hits.

Our GM just ruled that you can't Rapid Strike against swarms. Is there any official comment on this, or at least a commonly-accepted house rule?
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