Revisiting LogST throwing, now with Fixes!

[Mark Skarr]

Some basic numbers first:
Pink has a ST of 735. That, corresponds to a LogST of 47-48. I’m going to do my calculations with her LogST being 48.
A ST of 735 has a BL of 108,045 lbs, and a LogST 48 has a BL of 126,191 lbs.
The ST 735 does thrust damage of 74d, and the LogST 48 does (an anemic by comparison) 10d thrust.
(LogST was listed in Pyramid 3-83, in the article "Knowing your Own Strength")

According to the throwing rules, Pink can throw a 43,000 lb object 735 yards. But, with LogST, LogPink can throw the same object only a meager 48 yards. That object is more than BL/4, but less than BL/2, so it inflicts Thrust damage, which I listed above.

Well, the basic “fix” for LogST throwing distance is more maths. Which isn’t always fun except for those of us who like maths.

In step 4 of throwing distance (Campaigns, pg 355), we simply re-write the step:

Calculate your throwing distance by the following formula: basic distance = 10^((ST+10)/20). Multiply the basic distance by the Distance modifier to get the distance thrown.

I would really rather fix the distance by doing something based off of Basic Lift . . . but my brain isn't seeing a useful formula for that (and my calculus is too rusty).

Fixing the damage would be fairly extreme, but, I think this works (for a quick-thought):

Instead of the table on pg 355 looking at weight based on BL, if we looked up the weight of the object thrown on the Size and Speed/Range table in the Linear Measurement column, using lbs instead of yd. Apply the size modifier from the table as a bonus of damage per die of basic thrust damage modified for the throwing weight.

So, if LogPink throws a 43,000 lb object, looking up on the table, that’s a +26 bonus, which equates to a monstrous 10d+260. Using Dice plus Adds, that +260 breaks down into +74d+1, for a total of 84d+1 damage. If, instead of the +26 bonus, I go with the step down to +25, it reduces into 81d+1 damage.

However, if LogPink picked up NotWolverine, who weighs 750 lbs, and threw him, she’d only do 10d+160, or 55d+2 (or downstepping to 10d+150, for 52d+3) with him as a projectile. Normal Pink would do 53d-1 with him. I think that’s pretty close.

Or, close enough for Supers combat . . ..

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

Calculate your throwing distance by the following formula: basic distance = 10^((ST+10)/20). Multiply the basic distance by the Distance modifier to get the distance thrown.



Instead of the table on pg 355 looking at weight based on BL, if we looked up the weight of the object thrown on the Size and Speed/Range table in the Linear Measurement column, using lbs instead of yd. Apply the size modifier from the table as a bonus of damage per die of basic thrust damage modified for the throwing weight.

I dont understand the distance modifier bit.
I like the damage bit, its a nice simple method.
I used Collision damage based off input from Kromm who advised Damage vs. ST-2 to determine knockback.

[Mark Skarr]

Originally Posted by Refplace

I dont understand the distance modifier bit.

Yeah, I cheated on the distance modifier. Basically, I have you calculate what your normal ST would be, then multiply the distance modifier by it. Because I'm lazy and couldn't come up with a better idea. Hence posting to the fora. I'm sure someone's calculus is way better than my 30 year old classes.

Originally Posted by Refplace

I like the damage bit, its a nice simple method.

I thought the numbers were close enough. Sure, a little high, but if you've got a 43,000 lb object being thrown at your head, it should do a lot of damage.

Originally Posted by Refplace

I used Collision damage based off input from Kromm who advised Damage vs. ST-2 to determine knockback.

Yeah, my next issue will probably be trying to figure out Knockback for LogST. Since ST-2 gives some incredibly low numbers for LogST.

LogPink can only soak 43 points (she has skinny) before knockback. Where Normal Pink can soak 731 points. Gotta look into that. And I don't want to have to "cheat" by calculating the old ST.

[Anthony]

I would note that the throwing rules in Basic are pretty disconnected from reality.

[Mark Skarr]

Originally Posted by Anthony

I would note that the throwing rules in Basic are pretty disconnected from reality.

I would agree, but they're what I have to work with right now.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

I would agree, but they're what I have to work with right now.

You're actually better off going with the rules in Log ST. The formula in Basic should actually use a constant distance, not a multiple of ST.

[Mark Skarr]

Originally Posted by Anthony

You're actually better off going with the rules in Log ST. The formula in Basic should actually use a constant distance, not a multiple of ST.

Well, therein lies part of the problem. There aren't any rules for throwing in the LogST article, they're using the basic rules in the book . . . which is what I have to go on. But, I do agree. There should be a constant, call it T, which is modified by both gravity and atmospheric density that gives us the distance an object with a relative weight to the relative strength of the user can be thrown.

But, this is a game, and play-ability is way more important than real-world physics. And, while the existing rules are wonky, they're what we've got.

LogST has the advantage that the base multiplier is much smaller. But, it does mean that the super strong can't throw things very far (735 yds vs 48 yds) The furthest someone who can juggle armored cars can throw a baseball, with the existing rules is 168 yards . . .. And, any additional rules we got for LogST would probably be based off of existing rules.

My other idea for range, which wasn't a good one so I scrapped it, was go back to the Speed/Range table, look up the weight of the object thrown (which you'll need for the damage anyway). Subtract that number from your LogST, then look that number up in the Size Modifier table, and cross-reference your distance from the linear measurements column.

So, LogPink, with her LogST of 48, throwing the 43,000lb object, would have a range of (22) 10,000 yds.

Hmm, I might have to revisit that thought. That's not as unbalanced as I thought. It would make sense that she could put a baseball into orbit . . ..

Again, I'd love to see a Power-Ups book written for LogST.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

So, LogPink, with her LogST of 48, throwing the 43,000lb object, would have a range of (22) 10,000 yds.

Hmm, I might have to revisit that thought. That's not as unbalanced as I thought. It would make sense that she could put a baseball into orbit . . ..

Again, I'd love to see a Power-Ups book written for LogST.

Well using the table for both does add simplicity which is good at the table.
And I am so up for a Power Ups on Log ST.
I had an article I submitted for Pyramid that will never be printed now. I have been thinking of putting it up on the blog but I need to delete some stuff first.
I wish Supers had not been abandoned for GURPS. I think GURPS handles them really well, it just needs a few things changed such as ST and Log ST worked better than Super ST IMO. Mostly it needs some tactical explanations which was the thrust of my article.

[Anthony]

A first step on a revised rule for throwing (and damage):

Throwing Things
To throw an ordinary object, just find the ST required to lift that thing as 1x BL. You will throw it with a speed of 10+(your ST - ST required). An object over 8x BL cannot be thrown (8x BL requires ST 9 higher than your ST). It does normal damage for its speed and weight, and has a 1/2d range equal to your throw speed, a max equal to your throw speed squared/10, or 1/2D, whichever is less, and has Acc 0. If you have less than 10 excess ST, it takes 1 turn to ready an object for throwing.

An object used as a weapon is treated identically to throwing it. Objects specifically designed to be wielded and/or thrown may have better accuracy, higher damage, or both. Treat the min ST of a weapon as the ST required to use it without readying.

[Mark Skarr]

The BL formula for LogST is 2*10^(ST/10), which leaves a lot of room.

So, in our above example, the 43,000lb object would be the BL for a LogST 44 at 50,237 lbs (LogST 43 has a BL of 39,905).

LogPink would be able to throw the object at a move of 10 + (48 – 44) = 10 + (4) = 14. Significantly worse than before.

Granted, my version also needs some work. At LogST10 person, throwing a 1lb object could throw it 200 yards. Which isn’t correct either.

Under the basic rules, a ST10 person throwing a 1 lb object could throw it 35 yards.
A ST100 person, throwing a 100 lb object (the same ratio of weight to BL), could throw it 350 yards. Bu-uu-ut, they could throw the 1 lb object the same distance, but no further. So . . ..

Okay, so . . ., let’s just say that we divide distance by 10. Just pulling numbers out of the air.

So, a LogST 10 person could throw a 1 lb object 20 yards. They lose a lot of distance, but, we’ll keep looking.
A ST 100 person has a LogST of 30, so, they could throw that 1 lb object 500,000/10 or 50,000 yards. Sounds okay.
The LogST 30, throwing the 100 lb object would go 500 yards. Not bad.

Thinking about it, something that would help the low LogST over the high LogST would be to divide the distance from the speed/range table by 10, then add your ST value to the total. That would let the LogST 10 person throw a 1 lb object for 30 yards (close to their normal rules), and the LogST 30 person could throw 50,030 yards. An improvement, but not really broken.

LogPink could throw the 1 lb object . . . what’s +50 . . . 500,000,000 / 10, or 50,000,000 yards. Oh, wait, 50,000,048 yards . . ..