Price Efficiency of Super-ST [Powers/Supers]

[naloth]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Or you have ER (Super; Super ST, -50%) [1.5/level]. ER 20 would allow for a decently long fight before tapping into FP.

Not if per use is per attack. One foe with good defenses could exhaust that. You certainly wouldn't want this sort of "Superman" engaging the military or a horde of angry parademons.

Besides, essentially this is SuperST with a different pricing/progression scheme. It certainly doesn't address any of the main complaints of SuperST.

[CeeDub]

Originally Posted by naloth

The problem is that it doesn't mesh well with equipment that uses values that increase linearly with power. If you "log-ify" equipment, everything works rather nicely.

When the rules I need assume linear ST, I prefer to un-log-ify the KYOS ST instead.

Assuming my spreadsheet is correct: Say you have KYOS ST 30, which gives you a BL of 1,000 kg. You look up or calculate the linear ST needed for that BL, which is 100. Done. It's also easy to front-load this into character creation and simply note the linear ST value on your sheet, for quick reference.

Just be aware that you'd likely have different un-log values for Lifting ST and Striking ST.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by CeeDub

When the rules I need assume linear ST, I prefer to un-log-ify the KYOS ST instead.

Assuming my spreadsheet is correct: Say you have KYOS ST 30, which gives you a BL of 1,000 kg. You look up or calculate the linear ST needed for that BL, which is 100. Done. It's also easy to front-load this into character creation and simply note the linear ST value on your sheet, for quick reference.

Just be aware that you'd likely have different un-log values for Lifting ST and Striking ST.

I'd need more examples of how you use that. Let's say a character with Thing level ST (KYOS ST 40 Th 8d, punches for a bit more) is taking on WW2 era tank.

The WW2 era tank normally has ST 150, DR 280/105. I'd normally convert this to the KYOS log scale for ST 34 DR 35/30. He's slightly stronger for ST contests and his damage is enough that he can do a bit of damage (which comes off HP equal to ST).

How would you handle this going the other direction?

[Mark Skarr]

(BTW: Bill, thanks for that Super Strength table in the back of Supers.)

I just use KYOS, and add levels of Striking ST to flavor.

I don't have an issue when I have a character with LogST 35, and + 48 Striking ST to get about the same damage from ST 178.

ST 178 would cost 1,680 points.

Super ST 11 (31/170) will cost 540 points.

LogST 35 costs 250 points, and the extra 48 levels of Striking ST is 48 more points.

And my character with LogST 54 and

The ST 1,585 would cost them almost 16,000 points!

Super ST 17 (37/1,520) costs 780.

The LogST 54 costs them 440 points, and the extra, whopping 596 levels of Striking ST does make it 1,036 points.

So, for a bit more than Super ST 17 (At the point costs we're talking, I consider 256 points "a bit"), you can get a bit more ST (1,585 vs 1,520) that's always accessible and doesn't cost FP. The zero-FP version would be 899 points, so, we'd be paying 137 points for an extra 20 tons of BL and 6 more dice of damage.

Unloging ST is fairly easy. I have a calculator built to help me figure out how much ST a character will need, then what their old damage would be like to figure out how much damage I want them to do.

For me, having a single, unified ST stat that doesn't require a "fix" like Super ST works out much better.

[Mark Skarr]

Originally Posted by naloth

I'd need more examples of how you use that. Let's say a character with Thing level ST (KYOS ST 40 Th 8d, punches for a bit more) is taking on WW2 era tank.

The WW2 era tank normally has ST 150, DR 280/105. I'd normally convert this to the KYOS log scale for ST 34 DR 35/30. He's slightly stronger for ST contests and his damage is enough that he can do a bit of damage (which comes off HP equal to ST).

How would you handle this going the other direction?

Basically, he'd take the LogST 40 and convert it to ST 316. He'd then see that 8d thrust damage is only ST 75. So, while the character has a LogST 40, they have an unlogST of 316/75.

I don't subscribe to this method, but I do understand what he was saying.

ETA-
Also, I don't like your method. I consider that "The Hero method." It makes everything very similar in toughness. A Modern Main Battle Tank from High Tech, suddenly has a ST of 35, yet still has 178 HP (KYOS says to calculate HP from mass, so it doesn't change), and a DR of . . . wait, how did you calculate your DR? I get LogST 30 for DR 105, but I get LogST 39 for 280. I'm either doing it wrong, or I missed a step.

By my estimation, I would get a DR of 51/34 (and 53/42 for the turret) for the MMBT.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

Basically, he'd take the LogST 40 and convert it to ST 316. He'd then see that 8d thrust damage is only ST 75. So, while the character has a LogST 40, they have an unlogST of 316/75.

I understood the numbers. I didn't quite understand what he would do with it.

ETA-
Also, I don't like your method. I consider that "The Hero method." It makes everything very similar in toughness.

I've never actually run a Hero's campaign, so I certainly didn't get it the idea from there. If anything it was more inspired by the GURPS adaptation of Bunnies and Burrows. The change of scale there put the emphasis where you were going to use numbers.

Yes, there is less definition the higher the numbers get. You lose resolution between lifting 100 tons and 110 tons, and even more when you get up to higher ranges. Of course, it also makes every single level worth quite a bit as well which isn't something you can really say about the present system. I suspect there's already an acknowledgement that the difference between DR 100 -> DR 105 isn't nearly as useful as DR 20 -> DR 25. Log captures diminishing returns.

You also get less of a red mist or eggshell effect. People don't have hundreds or thousands of HP, but equipment often does have that much DR. If you have a group like the new X-men, Colossus will be nigh invulnerable to physical threats even when they can one-shot the rest of the team.

Finally, there are the point values. I find that you characters that are more closely matched in usefulness when ST, DR, and IT:DR aren't costing so much more than other powers. I did a few threads with sample characters (KYOS Justice League, Marvel, personal) and you can see that it makes most Avengers/X-men characters 500-1000 points with JLA movie versions around 1000.

Why is that range good? Aside from being aesthetically pleasing, it's on a scale powers that makes a Mind Probe magic lasso cost about the right proportion. On a 10k Wonder Woman, where you have a few thousand points in ST and defenses, trivial powers like Mind Probe are basically perks. Furthermore, you can drop a few hundred points in skills without really affecting the value of the character.

A Modern Main Battle Tank from High Tech, suddenly has a ST of 35, yet still has 178 HP (KYOS says to calculate HP from mass, so it doesn't change), and a DR of . . . wait, how did you calculate your DR? I get LogST 30 for DR 105, but I get LogST 39 for 280. I'm either doing it wrong, or I missed a step.

I did it in a hurry, it should be LogDR 39 for 280 or LogDR 34 for 180. I often lower HP if I don't want things to last a long time. For Superman, the Hulk, or Thor tanks are "mooks" just like thugs are mooks for Spidey or Cap. If you want to grind, you can play a video game. Everyone else doesn't have to sit around.

[AlexanderHowl]

I do not know. In general, I just have characters purchase Melee Attack if I want them to be heavy hitters. They can get Crushing Attack 15d (Melee, C-1, Dual Weapon, -10%; Super, -10%) for just 60 CP, which is a lot cheaper than Striking ST 10 (Super, -10%; Super-Effort, +400%) [245]. It does not stop being cheaper until after Striking ST 15 (Super, -10%; Super-Effort, +400%) [368], which is Crushing Attack 92 (Melee, C-1, Dual Weapon, -10%; Super, -10%). And that does not count the linear effects of extra effort, including godlike extra effort, on the Melee Attack.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

I do not know. In general, I just have characters purchase Melee Attack if I want them to be heavy hitters. They can get Crushing Attack 15d (Melee, C-1, Dual Weapon, -10%; Super, -10%) for just 60 CP, which is a lot cheaper than Striking ST 10 (Super, -10%; Super-Effort, +400%) [245]. It does not stop being cheaper until after Striking ST 15 (Super, -10%; Super-Effort, +400%) [368], which is Crushing Attack 92 (Melee, C-1, Dual Weapon, -10%; Super, -10%). And that does not count the linear effects of extra effort, including godlike extra effort, on the Melee Attack.

All of this ST on alternate means of ST misses the fact that for that PV can usually disable or kill a foe easier than doing raw damage. At some point you stop investing in the ability to damage them and instead invest in the ability to instantly incapacitate.

[AlexanderHowl]

I agree. For example, Affliction 1 (Will; Attribute Penalty, -20 ST, -20 DX, -20 IQ, and -20 HT, +600%; Based on Will, +20%; Malediction 3, +200%; No Signature, +20%; Permanent, Reversed in one moon, +150%; Selectivity, +10%) [100] is a fairly cheap method of crippling even the most powerful superhumans. It does not matter if Super Chipmunk has IT:DR 1,000 and Super ST 20 if they are incapable of doing anything more than drool and soil themselves.

[awesomenessofme1]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

I agree. For example, Affliction 1 (Will; Attribute Penalty, -20 ST, -20 DX, -20 IQ, and -20 HT, +600%; Based on Will, +20%; Malediction 3, +200%; No Signature, +20%; Permanent, Reversed in one moon, +150%; Selectivity, +10%) [100] is a fairly cheap method of crippling even the most powerful superhumans. It does not matter if Super Chipmunk has IT:DR 1,000 and Super ST 20 if they are incapable of doing anything more than drool and soil themselves.

I don't think you can use a timeframe as the dispelling condition for a Permanent Affliction. You'd probably need to use the pricing for very long durations from Power Ups 4.