How to keep melee weapons relevant in a setting with "guns"?

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Originally Posted by lwcamp

Perhaps lead is magically dead, so bullets can't carry magical blessings. It requires hand-crafted items made of natural materials, steel, silver, or other more magically active materials to hold enchantments. A .30 caliber bullet from a deer rifle can still punch holes in things, but a sword or arrow can be enchanted to dispel dark spirits, drink souls, or bless the weapon with luck to hit its targets.

Wouldn't that just mean people would use bullets made of non-lead stuff, even if they aren't as good? I know silver bullets shot from a gun don't do as much damage (because they over-penetrate), but what about if you used an [ulr=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_gun]air gun[/url]?

I would put more faith in "The weapon has to be at least This Big": bullets are too small to hold enchantments (at least for long: consider a gun mage who can enchant them as soon as they are about to fire).

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Guns work but rarely hit anything distant on purpose isn't actually all that far from real world combat results....

Stormtrooper school of marksmanship?

The thing about nerfing guns is I don't want the situation to turn into one where guns aren't as scary to ordinary people as they would be in real life.

[AlexanderHowl]

With the CQB techniques, characters can engage in quite close range combat with guns without penalty (as can Gunslingers with pistols). I have had PCs wielding SMGs (H&K MP7A1 is the preferred SMG for this stunt) with CQB in games for nearly a decade. I do not really care how good a character is parrying bullets if they are facing someone with firing 15 rounds per second.

[hal]

I'm guessing by the comments involving magic, as well as combat - that you're looking to run something not unlike SHADOWRUN or some form of MODERN FANTASY (as a genre concept).

That having been said:

Any kind of spell that invokes a "Reverse Missile" is going to be bad juju for gun users. Whether the spell is from GURPS MAGIC, or is done via any of the ritual magic spells or what have you, well, that's just going to cause people to rethink their combat strategies.

One of the favorite "grousing" my gaming crew has, has to do with one individual who, regardless of the tech level, regardless of the genre - if he has a missile weapon, and he's in the back, he invariably fires into a situation in which he has to avoid hitting fellow player characters, and invariably, they get upset when his roll to avoid hitting THEM fails (ie they get hit from behind).

One thing that gets overlooked in a regular basis is the "Overpenetration" rule. Another thing that gets overlooked often, is that a missle that misses its target, does NOT cease to exist! One player tried throwing a stone missile at an opponent while he was in a modern day house (It was a Modern Fantasy campaign). He missed his target, and his stone missile blew throught he drywall and made a mess in the next room as it overpenetrated and did damage there. The owner of the house - needless to say, was not happy to have that level of damage in her home (her PC's home that is *teasing grin*)

But, as one individual pointed out correctly - owning a gun in a society that controls such ownership, has some serious issues they need to be aware of. For example, if a person is charged with assault of any kind (whether with a weapon or not) or their spouse charges them with domestic abuse etc - the individual will have their weapons confiscated until the results of the investigation have been determined.

Perhaps the best way to look at how players at the gaming table tend to be where guns or projectile weapons are - is an old song by Jim Stafford...

Quoted from the song "COW PATTY"

"fourty shots rang out, and fourty people fell
But Patty and the Bandit missed each other
But shot the town to hell"

So - play that aspect up. Big time. Have innocent bystanders nearby (ever notice how the combats involving player characters ALWAYS seem to NOT have innocent bystanders nearby - just enemies to be killed?

If you really want to have fun? After the player characters are involved in a shootout - have the police confiscate their guns for purposes of determining ballistics (or so they say). Then have the players sweat it out when there is a news item on the TV along the lines of...

"In the news today, a shootout occured in the projects where gunmen opened up fire upon each other. Involved where <insert PC name 1 here> and <insert PC name 2 here> and <insert PC 3 name here> along with <insert all of the bad guys names here>. Witnesses give conflicting statements, and in the aftermath of the firefight, two innocent bystanders were hurt in the ensuing battle. Spokesmen for both families have indicated they are suing both the city, the police, and those involved in the firefight."

The only thing WORSE than being in a firefight - is being sued afterwards. But having the players gain a -2 reputation for engaging in a firefight (I always hit them with a given level of reputation penalties and then after a time, halve the penalties due to the issue of the news cycle always having some new outrage for people to focus upon. But getting into the news like that in a TL 8 society may very well become something you can't avoid thanks to the Internet.

So, buy Duster coats made of armor material, keep your blade handy in case you need it, and remind yourself that while the criminals may act like, well criminals where guns are concerned, you as a hero have to be careful in your behavior lest you be lumped in with the criminals or become one.

As a final note? One of my players LOVES his cyberpunk campaigns (one on one) and was really paranoid about being hit with a long ranged shot while in a city. I pointed out to him that cities aren't always all that hot where it comes to setting up long ranged sniper shots. Something as simple as wind shear from tall buildings and artificial wind tunnels can complicate things a bit. As a GM? Do not hold back on throwing in penalties against both the NPCs firing upon player characters, and conversely, player characters firing at NPCs. Give the player characters buck fever. Have them misjudge elevation shots. Have them make will saving rolls to stand upright when every nerve in their body is screaming "Take COVER!" and make the shot. Always remind your players that a Will saving roll of 14+ is a FAILURE regardless of the character's will stat. And, taking a page from one player's lack of consideration?

Don't hesitate to have people or things get in the way of a shooter's sight picture. Trees, bushes, telephone poles, signs, other people (sometimes someone in their excitement will inadvertently block someone else's shot).

Last piece of advice? Do NOT permit the players to have "Shot counting" unless they take the quirk "counts shots" or something along those lines. Have the players make Perception or IQ rolls to try to determine just how close they are to realizing that they're out of bullets. If they're safety conscious? Have them roll vs IQ to remember to disengage the gun safety.

Oh - and one last commentary - make sure that you make the ground rough in some instances where either the terrain is uneven, or calf/knee high grasses cover over the various changes in elevation or even have minor depressions just waiting to not only cause a person to stumble unexpectedly, but even to make them fall unexpectedly.

[Varyon]

Tweaking armor could get it done, putting things in the video-gamey realm of melee doing more damage. Ablative armor with really high DR against Pi (or Burn, for lasers/blasters) but really low DR against crushing, impaling, and/or cutting damage can mean it takes a lot of hits to down a target with a gun, but only one or two with a knife or sword. Alternatively, or in addition, you could rule that basically all armor is designed in such a way that it gives full coverage against straight-on attacks, but in melee a character can strike from an oblique angle (thrusting upward into the abdomen, for example) to bypass it, essentially giving all armor a greatly reduced penalty to target chinks/gaps, but only for melee thrusting (and maybe swinging, for picks and the like) attacks. You could even make it more extreme - armor gives 5/6 protection against melee, but full (or maybe 35/36 - you need to roll 2 on 2d to bypass armor) protection against ranged.

It would need a lot of tweaking and playtesting to get the balance right, but done properly this should be able to keep both melee and ranged viable as combat options. The result probably wouldn't be realistic, mind you, but there's a reason our infantry are armed with rifles instead of spears.

[Railstar]

Tear gas can do a lot to neutralise gunfire.

I don't just mean by affecting people with the gas.

-The cloud itself is a smokescreen (-3 to hit per yard of smoke I believe).

-Gas-masks prevent a proper cheek-weld, inflicting a penalty, I think from -1 to -4 depending on the gun (see Tactical Shooting for more, rifles get a larger penalty than pistols).

Throwing gas grenades and then charging in with swords or clubs can be a viable way of locking down the enemy.

[hal]

Originally Posted by Railstar

Tear gas can do a lot to neutralise gunfire.

I don't just mean by affecting people with the gas.

-The cloud itself is a smokescreen (-3 to hit per yard of smoke I believe).

-Gas-masks prevent a proper cheek-weld, inflicting a penalty, I think from -1 to -4 depending on the gun (see Tactical Shooting for more, rifles get a larger penalty than pistols).

Throwing gas grenades and then charging in with swords or clubs can be a viable way of locking down the enemy.

Depending on the TL, Magic functionality, etc - using night vision goggles will largely negate the darkness from the smoke screen.

Mind you, I'm not saying yea or nay here - but a lot of the tactics involved, depend on the game world the GM is trying to establish.

By the by, what you just suggested above just got stolen for my next cyberpunk campaign special attack. ;)

While I don't use Monowire blades and the like, I do permit the use of vibroblades in the campaign. Certain Armor types are GREAT against bullets - but lousy against certain melee attacks.

One thing that a player will find out before too much longer is that a certain model of robots intended to look like and act like Dobermans, are designed with drop down vibro blades (the canine teeth look normal until the dogs go into attack mode and the teeth get replaced with a more practical weapon system). When the dogs look like they're sniffing, they're in reality, reading bar codes and magnetic strips with respect to the ID cards themselves. This way, short of using high tech gear - it is hard for the public to know whether they're dealing with dogs or robots.

On that note...

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

The "take them alive" and "don't hit innocent bystanders" rules are also good, since I like Heroicness.....except that only applies to PCs. Enemies don't have to follow those rules, at least logically.

Originally Posted by hal

I'm guessing by the comments involving magic, as well as combat - that you're looking to run something not unlike SHADOWRUN or some form of MODERN FANTASY (as a genre concept).

I'm actually thinking something like a blend of Modern Fantasy, Standard Fantasy, and Pulp Adventure. Meaning cities aren't going to be the only focus, so any attempt to restrict guns based on city environments isn't going to help all the time.

[Edges]

Originally Posted by hal

Always remind your players that a Will saving roll of 14+ is a FAILURE regardless of the character's will stat.

I thought this only applied to Fright Checks and not to Will rolls in general.

[Daigoro]

Didn't I only just see a post with a way of doing this? Something along the lines of WM/TBMs get 1 DR vs bullets per point of melee skill, increasing at +1 DR per yard distance. I'm sure it was a week or two ago.