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Old 04-11-2020, 02:50 AM   #1
JimmyPlenty
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default initiating HTH is an attack

p116 ITL says Initiating HTH is considered an attack (during the movement phase). Does this mean the attacker does not get to attack during combat?
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Old 04-11-2020, 09:55 AM   #2
larsdangly
 
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Default Re: initiating HTH is an attack

This is a great question; the rules don't handle this well. The ruling I use is based on an attempt to reconcile the various ways this is described in various places in Melee, ITL and the GM's screen:

If you can reach a target's hex without being engaged, you may enter as part of your movement. The 1d6 die roll to enter is still made, but in this situation the timing of the resolution and implications for your action segment are basically similar to the way jumping or other actions during movement work. I.e., if you succeed at entering, you still have your action for the turn (assuming you didn't move too many hexes).

If instead you want to enter someone's hex but are engaged by them during the movement phase, you must use the 'enter HTH' action during the action segment to do so, and that is the only action you get to perform during that turn. I.e., it is functionally a special sort of attack.
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Old 04-11-2020, 11:37 AM   #3
Shostak
 
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Default Re: initiating HTH is an attack

The rules could definitely be clearer, but I think that they suggest that entering into HTH always happens during the movement phase, and the actual attacks occur during the action phase. The only exception to this is that if an attempt to initiate HTH is repelled with a roll of 6, the defender gets a free hit on the attacker that is in addition to a normal action. If one is extremely lucky, one could repel up to five HTH attempts and get in a normal attack for a total of up to six attacks in one turn.

Last edited by Shostak; 05-06-2020 at 03:15 PM. Reason: corrected number of possible free hits on HTH repel roll
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Old 04-11-2020, 01:28 PM   #4
Skarg
 
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Default Re: initiating HTH is an attack

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
...
If you can reach a target's hex without being engaged, you may enter as part of your movement. The 1d6 die roll to enter is still made, but in this situation the timing of the resolution and implications for your action segment are basically similar to the way jumping or other actions during movement work. I.e., if you succeed at entering, you still have your action for the turn (assuming you didn't move too many hexes).

If instead you want to enter someone's hex but are engaged by them during the movement phase, you must use the 'enter HTH' action during the action segment to do so, and that is the only action you get to perform during that turn. I.e., it is functionally a special sort of attack.
Yes, this is how we played it too. Reworded, in case it helps:

If you aren't engaged, and can reach the target's hex without becoming engaged, only using 1/2 MA, AND meet the other conditions to initiate HTH (q.v.), then you can attempt HTH during Movement, and you'd still get an action later in the turn.

If you're engaged, or become engaged during movement, then you can't enter HTH during movement, and can only do it as an action (again, if you meet the other conditions), and that would be your action.



However, there are contradictions in the wording in a couple of places:

ITL 103 very deliberately says that when you're engaged, you have to wait till your turn to attack comes. But the HTH rule itself (on ITL 116) suggests an engaged figure may shift onto a figure to attempt HTH, and if that were the only rule, would seem to mean it could be done during Movement if the figure were already engaged.

ITL 103 also says, "when its turn to attack comes, it moves onto the hex of any adjacent enemy, and attempts to hit with bare hands or (if it was ready) its dagger." which seems to imply they also get an attack if they succeed, although that seems like a break from how actions usually work, seems to contradict "Initiating HTH combat is considered an attack", and we took it to mean that it's just describing what's likely to happen in future turns.

Melee is much more clear on the distinction about when initiation happens based on engagement, however it also makes it sound like the initiator can also make an attack if they succeed... (except it also says initiating HTH is considered an attack):

Quote:
Originally Posted by basic Melee page 18
A disengaged figure picks option (b) to initiate HTH combat; he
moves onto the enemy’s hex during movement and attacks during
combat. An engaged figure picks option (o), stands still or shifts, and
enters an enemy hex and attacks during combat.
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Old 04-11-2020, 06:22 PM   #5
larsdangly
 
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Default Re: initiating HTH is an attack

The passage you quoted from Melee is definitely the best RAW description, and I would say is pretty close to what you and I do as a ruling.
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Old 04-11-2020, 08:51 PM   #6
Axly Suregrip
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Default Re: initiating HTH is an attack

I also do it like Skarg and Larsdangly. In that: during movement you can enter a foe's only if you may do so without getting engaged. Otherwise, this is an option during the Action phase.

I differ in one detail: I used to play the "it is an attack" like they did but now I allow the HTH initiator to also attempt a punch or stab during the action phase (whether he/she attempted the HTH during movement or attack phase). I find this matches the description in the rules better and it makes the HTH attempt less of a wasted turn for the initiator.
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Old 04-11-2020, 09:49 PM   #7
Shostak
 
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Default Re: initiating HTH is an attack

The wording at the bottom of ITL 116 is explicit that the attempt to enter HTH comes during the movement phase. This is backed up by the last paragraph of the introduction to HTH (on ITL 117) which states that HTH attacks are rolled for during the combat phase.
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Old 04-11-2020, 11:22 PM   #8
Axly Suregrip
 
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Default Re: initiating HTH is an attack

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shostak View Post
The wording at the bottom of ITL 116 is explicit that the attempt to enter HTH comes during the movement phase. This is backed up by the last paragraph of the introduction to HTH (on ITL 117) which states that HTH attacks are rolled for during the combat phase.
Hi Shostak,
These are good points. As Larsdangly stated earlier, the rules don't handle this well. I will share some quotes from the rules that make it clear it happens during the Combat/Action phase in some situations, and then everyone is forced to justify these against each other. I will get to it.

First to your point about what you found on ITL 116-7. Since I believe HTH may be attempted in either the movement or combat phase, depending on the condition of the situation, those sections are referring to when it happens during the movement phase. And rolling during combat phase does not change anything either way. Please read on.

---

ITL pg 103 option (o) for attempting HTH when engaged states "During the
movement phase, the figure stands still or shifts; when its
turn to attack comes, it moves onto the hex of any adjacent
enemy
, and attempts to hit with bare hands or (if it was ready)
its dagger."

From the attempt engaged HTH option above you can clearly see it states that HTH attempt occurs during the Combat phase.

---

ITL pg 103 movement section "A figure must stop its movement for the turn when it becomes “engaged” ".

and

ITL pg 116 "If the attacking figure is disengaged, this is a regular move."

The point of the above is that HTH attempts that force you through a front hexside force you to first stop to be engaged. In these situations, you may not attempt HTH during the movement phase since you are first forced to stop. But if you are able to move onto your foe without getting engaged it is a regular move, that is, done during movement.

---

It is a mess to pick through. This is how I read it. Best wishes.
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Old 04-12-2020, 10:08 AM   #9
Shostak
 
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Default Re: initiating HTH is an attack

Yes, the HTH rules are confusing and contradictory; sections regarding HTH on ITL 102-103 and 116-117 do not agree. Unless SJ himself rules on this, we will all have to call it as best we can. Here's a little bit of the how and why I came up with my interpretation:

TFT is fast, simple, and has realatively few special case rules. There is a section of the rules devoted specifically to HTH (ITL 116-117), which contradicts information about Options on ITL 103. According to the rules found on ITL 116-117, moving into HTH occurs during the Movement Stage of a turn, and combat comes during the Action Stage. This is consistent with all other movement and combat. If you allow moving into HTH during the Action Stage, you are introducing a special case of movement. While Melee was clearer about when HTH is initiated, it violates the simplicity doctrine in that it allows for movement during the Action Stage of a turn.

The rule on ITL 116 about how attempting to initiate HTH is considered an attack (ITL 116) also contradicts ITL 102-103. If one again lets ITL 116-117 supercede ITL 103, the rule keeps a figure from making this attempt during the Movement Stage, being repelled by the defender (also during Movement), and then making a normal melee attack during the Action Stage.

So far, this interpretation does not allow a disengaged figure to run (using up to half-MA) straight at a defender facing them and jump them in HTH, since the engagement rules call for them to stop immediately when becoming adjacent. If that is important to you, allowing one to ignore this engagement rule only in this instance introduces no more exceptions than do the RAW.

Last edited by Shostak; 06-15-2020 at 08:56 AM. Reason: page number
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Old 04-12-2020, 10:32 AM   #10
larsdangly
 
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Default Re: initiating HTH is an attack

This is a case where you can't resolve the issue by simply looking up a passage of rules and parsing what it says; there are several passages (in several games, if you count melee) and they don't present a clear and consistent message to any reading. So, you have to make a ruling. I explained above what mine is; I think it is simple, easy to remember, pretty balanced, and gets you as close to consistent with the text and rules on engagement as you can get. But you are empowered to make your own. Just be sure it is something that can be applied in a totally self-consistent way, because this is part of the gear-work of the combat engine and shouldn't be subject to GM whims.
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