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Old 08-02-2009, 02:27 AM   #31
sir_pudding
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Default Re: [Spaceships] TL10^ exploration frigate

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Originally Posted by Brett View Post
Crew[list][*]Control room crew: 6[*]Turret gunners: 3
[snip][*] Double cabin (2 officers)[*] Double cabin (2 officers)[*] Bunkroom (4 ratings)[*] Bunkroom (4 ratings)
According to Spaceships page 33 "Bridge crew,
gunners, and administrators may be sapient computer programs;". Given that this is certainly the case in Flat Black (with at least the turret gunners), I don't think they need cabins.

EDIT: Also some (all?) of the damage control personnel are probably robots.

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Old 08-02-2009, 07:33 AM   #32
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Default Re: [Spaceships] TL10^ exploration frigate

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Yep. That would be great. Replace a fuel tank with a cargo compartment and call it antimatter storage. All we need is a canonical figure for how much antimatter you can store in a 150-ton container.
Unfortunately, the cannonical figure is extremely low. Ultra-Tech page 81 has the Antimatter Trap, and even if you assume a non-portable version is ten times lighter than the portable version you can still only carry one hundred fifty thousand micrograms of antimatter in a TL10, 150-ton container. That's not even a single gram.

According to Ultra-Tech, you need forcefields, artificial gravity, or similar super-science to get decent amounts of antimatter packed in. With the same assumption as earlier, (10x storage for the same mass as a portable system) you'd be able to carry 150 kilograms of antimatter in a 150-ton container.

The non-superscience version would cost three hundred million bucks and the superscience version would cost six hundred million bucks, and that's all before adding any antimatter to the mix.
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Old 08-02-2009, 07:45 AM   #33
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Default Re: [Spaceships] TL10^ exploration frigate

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
According to Spaceships page 33 "Bridge crew,
gunners, and administrators may be sapient computer programs;". Given that this is certainly the case in Flat Black (with at least the turret gunners), I don't think they need cabins.

EDIT: Also some (all?) of the damage control personnel are probably robots.
Depends on the cost of Sapient AIs. They exist, but I got the impression that they're far from easy or cheap to make. Maybe even more expensive than a dedicated human with similar skills.

And the Empire hates to give anyone control of lethal weaponry but a reliable Mink. Automated systems may handle a lot of the work, but the final 'fire' command is always human.
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Old 08-02-2009, 07:50 AM   #34
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Default Re: [Spaceships] TL10^ exploration frigate

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Depends on the cost of Sapient AIs. They exist, but I got the impression that they're far from easy or cheap to make. Maybe even more expensive than a dedicated human with similar skills.
In GURPS terms a "Sapient" is an entity capable of tool-use and language (Basic page 15). These are a dime a dozen in Flat Black.
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And the Empire hates to give anyone control of lethal weaponry but a reliable Mink. Automated systems may handle a lot of the work, but the final 'fire' command is always human.
In the original ForeSight version the turrets were completely automated, AFAICT.
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Old 08-02-2009, 08:06 AM   #35
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Default Re: [Spaceships] TL10^ exploration frigate

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In GURPS terms a "Sapient" is an entity capable of tool-use and language (Basic page 15). These are a dime a dozen in Flat Black.
I mean in the sense of NAI/LAI/SAI and all that. An automated system that can rival humans in making moral judgments.

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In the original ForeSight version the turrets were completely automated, AFAICT.
But not the authority to shoot, right?
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Old 08-02-2009, 08:19 AM   #36
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Default Re: [Spaceships] TL10^ exploration frigate

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I mean in the sense of NAI/LAI/SAI and all that. An automated system that can rival humans in making moral judgments.
I don't think that Spaceships was referencing anything other than the Basic set here, certainly not THS. Any AI with IQ 6+ can fill the requirement, regardless of other traits.

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But not the authority to shoot, right?
I doubt a human rating would be given that direct authority either. ROE and all that.
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Old 08-02-2009, 08:43 AM   #37
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Default Re: [Spaceships] TL10^ exploration frigate

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I don't think that Spaceships was referencing anything other than the Basic set here, certainly not THS. Any AI with IQ 6+ can fill the requirement, regardless of other traits.
Fair enough.

But if a human has skill 12+ and the AI has skill 6 with a plus 6 or more when in certain very narrow technical situations, the human looks awfully attractive.

I just don't know how effective the cheap 'AIs' in Flat Black are. Maybe the ones that are common are just really advanced interface expert systems. With no independent judgment.

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I doubt a human rating would be given that direct authority either. ROE and all that.
But even when weapons are free, it's a sticking point with the Empire that humans are involved in all decisions that could kill people.

And that's what I assumed was the job of the gunners here. Be present as a human with judgment.
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Old 08-02-2009, 08:55 AM   #38
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Default Re: [Spaceships] TL10^ exploration frigate

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Fair enough.

But if a human has skill 12+ and the AI has skill 6 with a plus 6 or more when in certain very narrow technical situations, the human looks awfully attractive.
It's a Comp 8 computer network, I think it can do better than that.
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I just don't know how effective the cheap 'AIs' in Flat Black are. Maybe the ones that are common are just really advanced interface expert systems. With no independent judgment.
In the original ForeSight version they were effective enough to be used instead of human Gunners.
Quote:
And that's what I assumed was the job of the gunners here. Be present as a human with judgment.
Do you actually need one per weapon system just to say "Yea or Nay"?

Besides the original ForeSight Necho had no such personnel; why are they needed now?
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Old 08-02-2009, 09:00 AM   #39
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Default Re: [Spaceships] TL10^ exploration frigate

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It's a Comp 8 computer network, I think it can do better than that.
By GURPS rules, but obviously, that may or may not match Flat Black assumptions.

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In the original ForeSight version they were effective enough to be used instead of human Gunners.
And maybe they still are.

I just don't know enough setting-wise to say.

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Do you actually need one per weapon system just to say "Yea or Nay"?

Besides the original ForeSight Necho had no such personnel; why are they needed now?
I dunno.

Maybe.

After all, that's essentially what a Marine is. Someone to tell combat bots yea or nay. And I gather most drive only a few or maybe even one at a time, at least if they're armed.
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Old 09-06-2013, 05:11 AM   #40
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Default Re: [Spaceships] TL10^ exploration frigate

I'm going to revisit this design with Spaceships 3 and Spaceships 5. Split systems are canonical now, but I'd like to squeeze in a complement of 50. That's one captain IN who will require night and day cabins, two lieutenant-commanders, two lieutenants, two sublieutenants, a midshipman, one chief petty officer, six petty officers, six leading ratings, three ordinary ratings, eight marines including a corporal, an ambassador, a dean, two heads of schools, three junior diplomats, ten academics, and a lieutenant (equivalent to army captain) of the Imperial Marines Intelligence Corps.
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