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Old 07-16-2020, 09:48 AM   #21
Andrew Hackard
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Default Re: Old AD&D modules

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Old 07-17-2020, 09:36 AM   #22
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Default Re: Old AD&D modules

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
If you mean concept-wise. Yes. If you mean power-wise not so much. Of course some of the modules have lapses in logic.

I mean to expect a party of 1014 level characters to have a chance to kill a demon goddess (Queen of the Demonweb Pits aka Q1) is laughable.
This is closely related to the problem of adaptation. Early D&D stuff is often not terribly balanced for any party but the sample characters, and even for them only when they stay on the railroad plot. That's much of the problem with GURPS conversions of "power" too, because two GURPS parties with the same number of points can be even more different in power than two D&D parties with the same number of levels.

The "conceptual" adaptation you have to do to make an old module work with GURPS isn't actually all that different than the tweeking you needed to do to make the module work with the spell lists, magic item loadouts and usual tactics of a particular AD&D party. Don't let this newfangled level appropriate challenge rating stuff cloud your memories....
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Old 07-17-2020, 10:10 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Prince Charon View Post
It probably depends a lot on how the goddess is adapted. Was Lolth fairly weak in Module Q1 (I don't think that I've ever played it)?
Lolth was nuts in Q1. AC -10 (yes negative 10; AC 10 is very roughly akin to Dodge 8)/ - 2; 88 HP; had what amounts to a Toxic attack and a Binding attack. Magic resist of 70% (roughly between MR 11 and 12 based on the percentage); "able to heal herself at will, up to thrice/day"; "not affected by weapons which are not magical, silver does her no harm (unless enchanted to at least +1), and cold, electrical and gas attack forms cause only one-half damage." Then there were all the Clerical (35 at 16 level) and Magic-User (25 at 14th level) spells she could cast. And she had psionic abilities of 266 on top of all that. ("minor devotions of body equilibrium, clairvoyance, domination, and the major sciences of dimension walking, mind bar, molecular rearrangement, and probability travel". All at 16th level of ability/experience)

If this dose of "Are you kidding?!" wasn't enough Deities and Demigods (which came out the same year) added the following which I converted with regards to Tiamat (though Tiamat was converted with GURPS not DFRPG in mind):

Command ("no saving throw vs. this divine ability"): Mind Control [50]
Comprehend languages: Gift of Tongues and Gift of Letters combined (special spell)
Detect alignment: NA in GURPS
Gate: Planar Summons (spell) - limited to mythos
Geas: Great Geas (spell)
Quest (no saving throw): Lesser Geas (spell)
Teleport: Jumper [100] and Warp [100]
True seeing: Aura (spell)

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Originally Posted by b-dog View Post
I asked Gary Gygax about the Queen or the Demonweb Pits and he told me he had a different idea and that conclusion adventure to the Drow series would have been very different if he had written it. He said there were two factions of Drow, those that served Lolth and those that served the Elder Eye and the PCs would have to play them against one another to win. But instead the Queen of the Demonweb Pits ended up being a gonzo adventure that really didn’t make any sense.
Oh. I thought that was just the way Gary Gygax wrote modules as Dungeonland and Beyond the Magic Mirror didn't make any sense either as ever single thing in them is out to kill you and the tone was so off from the source material that you felt poor Dodgson was doing about 1,000 rpms in his grave. It didn't help that they dropped some insanely powerful magic items - the Mad Hatter knockoff had the AD&D1 Deck of Many Things. Believe me you do not want any edition of that item anywhere in your DFRPG setting - its just too random and too powerful.

That is the one thing you have to watch like a hawk with the early modules - overly powerful magic items for the level involved. White Plume Mountain (S2) had the Blackrazor (effectively Elric's Stormbringer) which if you weren't careful one of your 5 - 10 level party members could get a hold of. And if the module has anything that grants a D&D wish...just don't. Or if you do for the love of sanity do not twist the wish - it just makes the players feel "cheated" out of should have been some nice swag and sets up the Players vs GM mentality that wound up destroying many a campaign.

Quote:
Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
This is closely related to the problem of adaptation. Early D&D stuff is often not terribly balanced for any party but the sample characters, and even for them only when they stay on the railroad plot. That's much of the problem with GURPS conversions of "power" too, because two GURPS parties with the same number of points can be even more different in power than two D&D parties with the same number of levels.

The "conceptual" adaptation you have to do to make an old module work with GURPS isn't actually all that different than the tweeking you needed to do to make the module work with the spell lists, magic item loadouts and usual tactics of a particular AD&D party. Don't let this newfangled level appropriate challenge rating stuff cloud your memories....
You really can't convert D&D levels to GURPS/DF/DFRPG points as classes even now vary wildly in terms of power and in the older versions based on XP didn't even advance at the same speed. In pre AD&D3 Magic-Users were annoyingly weak until you got up to around 10 level while fighters, Paladins, and Clerics were effective juggernauts by comparison.

Also in modules like Tomb of Horrors the "gotcha" aspects depend on the way a lot of D&D spells work which are not true of spells in DF/DFRPG and certainly not with their GURPS Magic inspirations. You really have to have a good handle on how the D&D spells work to adapt a module to DF and even more so for DFRPG as you have a far smaller toolkit to work with. Also some modules (like the previously mentioned Tomb of Horrors) expect the player to have a medium number of hirelings and henchmen with them. So instead of just the 6-8 PCs you actually had what amounted to a platoon running around with the encounters designed for that.

Also there are concepts that just do not convert very well. D&D Magic Resistance had no effect on a creature that could cast spells...regardless of it casting them on itself or others.

Last edited by maximara; 07-18-2020 at 12:29 AM.
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Old 07-28-2020, 05:01 PM   #24
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Default Re: Old AD&D modules

I have used some D&D adventures for DFRPG & they work just fine.
To be fair I've used 1st to 5th level adventures not "high level" adventures.
High level ones should work fine too though.

I find the hardest part is balancing some encounters. I try to use Matt Riggsby's
N system from: MOFD
http://www.warehouse23.com/products/...the-fire-demon

Otherwise some encounters are too easy (for example 2 orcs vs a party).
However, add two more & your good to go.

Also, converting some monsters that don't already have DFRPG or DF equivalents can be tricky. Then I eyeball it. Although, I find that an almost straight use of stat levels & damage works.
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Old 07-28-2020, 05:42 PM   #25
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Default Re: Old AD&D modules

I've run D&D modules using GURPS (not DF, this was back before DF even existed). It works like any other system conversion: you have to treat it as inspiration, rather than directly translating.
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Old 07-29-2020, 12:39 PM   #26
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Default Re: Old AD&D modules

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
I've run D&D modules using GURPS (not DF, this was back before DF even existed). It works like any other system conversion: you have to treat it as inspiration, rather than directly translating.
This is it, 100%. I'm running The Forbidden Caverns of Archaia right now (technically a 5e adventure, but written in a very old school way), and most of the conversion is pretty easy: Dinomen instead of Kobolds in early areas, bump up some of the encounters in numbers and ability to meet the challenge of the delvers, be somewhat judicious in the award of money and loot.

There *are* a lot of magic items, though (substituting many of them out for DF Magic Items), and early on. It's fine, but so far, the delvers have had a fairly easy go of it after about 12 or 13 multi-session delves (and they're now about 315 points or so). They've also been pretty cautious, for the most part, and haven't had a lot of really difficult encounters--one of which was wisely avoided by not using the "attack first, ask questions later" strategy
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